Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[testname]

To those that say RNG isn't fun

Check Poker games which I played by some time a lot for real money- it's all RNG but still famous people still are wining tournaments

The crafting should be fun, clearly SE lack any innovation and fresh thought

[Maeka]

To those that say RNG isn't fun

Check Poker games which I played by some time a lot for real money- it's all RNG but still famous people still are wining tournaments

The crafting should be fun, clearly SE lack any innovation and fresh thought

Poker has strategy and is a PvP RNG-based game, where the RNG is equal for everybody involved (unless someone is cheating, then it is no fun). That's a bit different than having 4-5 failed Hasty Touches in one synth (I am obviously talking about pre-5.1) where the game is basically giving you the middle finger and you have no recourse of action against it.

Poker has a lot of nuance and strategy behind it, a good player will absolutely destroy you, despite RNG. You might get lucky and win a hand or two but in the end run you don't stand a chance against a pro player. This is how you KNOW that Poker isn't all about RNG. If it was 100% RNG and 0% skill, then everybody would have pretty much equal chances of winning and it would be purely a throw of the dice as to who wins the match. But it's not; there's a clear boundary of skill, where Pro players can just walk all over anybody who doesn't compete at the professional level.

And even then, "winning" a hand is more about being smart about your bets. Fold when you know you aren't going to win, and don't waste money unless you're sure you can win, and knowing your chances of winning. These are all skills that you must use to be successful in poker.

There's no skill in "Will this 80% hasty touch fail for the 4th time in a row, or will it actually work this time?"

[Abyraz]

To those that say RNG isn't fun ... The crafting should be fun, clearly SE lack any innovation and fresh thought

Poker has strategy and is a PvP RNG-based game, where the RNG is equal for everybody involved (unless someone is cheating, then it is no fun). That's a bit different than having 4-5 failed Hasty Touches in one synth (I am obviously talking about pre-5.1) where the game is basically giving you the middle finger and you have no recourse of action against it.

Poker has a lot of nuance and strategy behind it, a good player will absolutely destroy you, despite RNG. You might get lucky and win a hand or two but in the end run you don't stand a chance against a pro player...."

I actually agree with you both of you, and I suspect you are both hitting close to the same point.

The problem with RNG in crafting, imo, hasn't been that RNG exists, the problem has been that the RNG is either too extreme (failed attempts, -50% bad, 400% ex, etc) and/or that we are at the mercy of bad RNG.

What if there were some upsides to failing a step? maybe an ability that you can only use after a fail, or a stacking buff?
What if there were ways to manipulation the condition or at least predict it? (ideally with less extreme/binary points)
What if for consumables, instead of nq or hq, ending quality affects yield?
etc

In my eye, crafting is, or at least could be, a gambling mini game that degrades into a math problem as you out gear, or add enough starting quality.

To make gambling fun, players need to feel that at least some aspect of luck is in their hands, smaller delta between good and bad luck, and frequent enough so that it doesn't feel like feast or famine; I think we can mostly agree that current state of crafting doesn't hit any of those points.

[Ryaz]

I actually agree with you both of you, and I suspect you are both hitting close to the same point.

The problem with RNG in crafting, imo, hasn't been that RNG exists, the problem has been that the RNG is either too extreme (failed attempts, -50% bad, 400% ex, etc) and/or that we are at the mercy of bad RNG.

What if there were some upsides to failing a step? maybe an ability that you can only use after a fail, or a stacking buff?
What if there were ways to manipulation the condition or at least predict it? (ideally with less extreme/binary points)
What if for consumables, instead of nq or hq, ending quality affects yield?
etc

In my eye, crafting is, or at least could be, a gambling mini game that degrades into a math problem as you out gear, or add enough starting quality.

To make gambling fun, players need to feel that at least some aspect of luck is in their hands, smaller delta between good and bad luck, and frequent enough so that it doesn't feel like feast or famine; I think we can mostly agree that current state of crafting doesn't hit any of those points.

Part of the issue is the alrogithm SE uses for FFXIV. It's one of the better RNG generators out there and is actually really randomized- over larger sample sizes. However, it tends to be streaky is smaller samples (which is why you'll see yourself fail a gather at 99% 3 times in a row one time, but HQ it at only 15% chance 3 times in a row the next time.