FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

[Oxdarock]

Well, the direction this conversation took has certainly been interesting. But, back to the main topic at hand. For those who saw my recent challenge on the tank version of this thread, I said how I'd be pointing out issues with the NIN opener first. Well, I have good news and bad news.

The good news is that I've finally pieced together all of the goals of the Early TA opener (a.k.a, the current Balance opener). There are some tweaks that can be made to make it even better, but it finally makes sense to me. Would definitely help if there was more explanation to go with it on the NIN guide, but I guess I'll take the time to explain it later, if only for self reaffirmation.

The bad news? When the same logic is applied to the delayed TA opener, it ends up making it even stronger for personal NIN dps, along with the increase to raid dps I've been advocating. I'll be sure to address all of this down the road, but I just thought I'd give people a heads up. Look forward to it!

[HyoMinPark]

Oh my god really?
You're seriously going to get that petty? Are you just looking for something to argue about?

No, I’m simply proving your initial argument wrong, which was that fights aren’t scripted and your rotation is a fight-by-fight rotation (i.e., changes with the fight) because bosses do things in random order. A few bosses have “random” mechanics, but they always occur in such a way that the way you perform your rotation isn’t changed. Let me give you a more in-depth answer now that I’m not half-asleep and distracted.

Fights in this game are highly scripted: you will always know when and where things are happening, and there’s tons of evidence to back this up. It’s actually been a community complaint that one can go “tankbuster is 20 seconds into the fight, first raid wide is at 30—I can use my immunity at 20 seconds and the SCH can just Indom after the raid wide every single time”. Again, I invite you to go look up fight timelines for any Savage, Extreme, or Ultimate. People have been posting images with mechanics plus time stamps on them since Deltascape. Like this one.

Any mechanical randomness tends to be 1 out of 2 different kinds of mechanics (E4S Massive Landslide first versus ATV mode first); but you’re still missing the key point here: your rotation does not change despite this. It doesn’t matter which one Titan does first: my rotation on DNC still flows the same: Standard Finish is still used every 30 seconds; Technical Finish/Devilment every 120 seconds, Shield Samba is still used during Crumbling Down because that’s where my healers wanted it; etc.. The “randomness” does not affect this. And the busters will always be at the same point in the fight. He won’t randomly not do them.

Even a fight like Brawler (your example) or any of the A6S robots will still do their mechanics at the same point in a fight even if it’s Single Beam/Drill versus Double Beam/Drill. That won’t change anything rotation-wise except maybe tank and healer cooldown usage for the buster versus the stack—he’ll always do the one he didn’t do first later, and it will always be at the same time stamp. Here’s a Death & Taxes guide for A6S—if you notice, each phase is broken down with exact time stamps of when the mechanics occur. It never changes despite Brawler’s Attachment randomness. Which was my entire point.

Your base rotation for any job doesn’t drastically change on a fight-by-fight basis. There are niches where you may do something different (e.g., my example with DNC AOEing during Phase 1 of TEA because it’s a gain over single-target), but it will always generally be the same. The most that tends to change is where/when mitigation is used.

Is that explained better?

If you don’t like having your arguments contested, don’t post on a public forum.

I also did not say that... I said this...
"No they actually won't (be consistent/predictable), because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant, either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not."

This is also incorrect with regards to any kind of current content. Bosses now don’t need certain HP thresholds to be reached in order to phase—they phase based on a time-stamp. It won’t matter if you get Titan to 75% or if he’s still at 85% by the time Titan Maximum comes out. At roughly ~3:43, the boss will phase into Titan Maximum irregardless of his HP value. Same for Orogenesis at ~9:49. This has been the case since at the very least SB, where the developers stopped making fights to phase based on HP %. Probably because of the amount of salt that revolved around Zurvan EX back in HW—all you needed to do was push him past 80% to skip the first Soar, which only required one to do a standard opener. When people failed to do something so simple, salt ensued and the infamous “Skip Soar or Disband” came to be.

[SiriusSaltstice]

Well, the direction this conversation took has certainly been interesting. But, back to the main topic at hand. For those who saw my recent challenge on the tank version of this thread, I said how I'd be pointing out issues with the NIN opener first. Well, I have good news and bad news.

The good news is that I've finally pieced together all of the goals of the Early TA opener (a.k.a, the current Balance opener). There are some tweaks that can be made to make it even better, but it finally makes sense to me. Would definitely help if there was more explanation to go with it on the NIN guide, but I guess I'll take the time to explain it later, if only for self reaffirmation.

The bad news? When the same logic is applied to the delayed TA opener, it ends up making it even stronger for personal NIN dps, along with the increase to raid dps I've been advocating. I'll be sure to address all of this down the road, but I just thought I'd give people a heads up. Look forward to it!

Are you real

[Vendalwind]

Small chime in on scripted fights. Talking in absolutes I side with silverquick. Small anecdote why: My static in ultimate Doesn't have a SAM and our DRG refuses to withhold burst to take down his add quick, so I as the nin conserve my first DWD and Assassinate to bolster my Doll kill time so I can get the first feed. I use the exact same set of GCD's and oGCD's to kill the bot, but because of crit variance on some really heavy hitters (A raiton, DWD, and a bhava go out) there have been times where I've killed my bot without completing the last two GCDs, a spinning edge, and a gust slash, And there have been times where even after both of those GCD's the bot is above 25%.

my typical pattern on Doll is Aeolian->DWD->Raiton->Assassinate->EARLIEST FEED TIME Spinning(Crit dependent)->Bhava (CD)->Gust (CD)->Bhava(CD) LATEST FEED TIME IF NO CRITS
I specifically use this combo cause the DWD is multi hit and thus less likely to cause crit variance, and the Assassinate is always crit+direct thus stable. The raiton is the scariest part. If raiton crits I'm immediately dropping Gust+bhava from the end. if Raiton AND 2-3 of DWD AND first bhava crits I've killed my doll. SO i have to watch DWD and Raiton to know whether to tab target switch to LL after Assassinate, or after the second bhava.

You could rationally argue my rotation tho doesn't change cause in that moment I just tab target to the boss earlier or later and my attacks remain the same, but my movement, and my targets have changed due to randomness in both the doll spawn position and the crits involved,
BUT thats not entirely true cause i convert a bhava into a frog if i save it.

Regardless tho the cumulus actions are take are different and reactionary to the spawn positions of the fight and crit variance.

(That math can be easily seen. as a crit is worth 50% extra damage the raiton crit potency gain is 400, and the DWD is 300 bhava is 150. While my two other GCDs Spinning and Gust are 220+330. IE if i crit Raiton and most of DWD ive already done spinning and gust's dmg. If i don't crit ANYTHING spinning and gust aren't enough to make up the 850 loss due to crit failure, and thus instead of saving a frog and/or Katon for when LL and LH are back together I'm forced to spend that 50 ninki to change my rotation for an extra bhava (300-450 if crit) to reduce the loss)

-Side note, this is even more frustrated by RNG i've discovered when the bot spawns in such a place that its in range to get hit by the Main tank paladins AoE move (Confiteor) that he naturally happens to be using at that point in a fight. So again for perfect dps uptime for both of us we have to be aware of where the bot spawns.

[PyurBlue]

No they actually won't (be consistent/predictable), because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant, either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not.

Have you ever compared two groups with vastly different DPS on fflogs? While there is some variation, the encounters tend to line up with each other pretty well.

I guess you're not wrong in saying that variation exists, but there isn't that much of it. 95% of the time your best option is to follow your rotation. As I've done more end game fights myself I've found that sticking to your rotation is a very common answer to the question of optimization. If a mechanic forces you to disrupt your usual sequence of actions, you're probably doing something wrong. There are exceptions to this, but they're very much exceptions.

[Vendalwind]

Have you ever compared two groups with vastly different DPS on fflogs? While there is some variation, the encounters tend to line up with each other pretty well.

I guess you're not wrong in saying that variation exists, but there isn't that much of it. 95% of the time your best option is to follow your rotation. As I've done more end game fights myself I've found that sticking to your rotation is a very common answer to the question of optimization. If a mechanic forces you to disrupt your usual sequence of actions, you're probably doing something wrong. There are exceptions to this, but they're very much exceptions.

Yeah absolutely true. in fact I'd say even despite my post above 95% is lenient. So by doll in the fight for example 60 seconds have passed and that's the only change i have to make. and it's only an oGCD and target switch potentially 2 gcd's early. (bhava into a frog or not) so its a very minor change of the position of a tab target button push and the use of frog.

[SaberMaxwell]

Obviously I do.
And where in the hell did you get the idea I was talking about "combos"? I do not recall ever bring up Casters doing "combos". I do believe it was about "rotation" and having to change your rotation... and directly stated so.

And I do believe we were talking about losing a GCD and it changing your pre-planned rotation... not "The Summoner isn't mobile".

OK then, Dr. Summoner, explain to me in detail what exactly about Summoner's rotation gets ruined if, say, a Gaze mechanic happens. Bonus points if you can point out any of the myriad tools Summoner has to mitigate the issue in the first place.

What "outlandish" claims are you talking about?
I stated boss mobs will randomly use techniques, and gave an example and the response I got was "but but but that doesn't count and stuff"
Either way none of it has anything do with what I said.

I debunked your example. Despite your juvenile attempts to make the opposition sound childish, it actually is not a good example because Blaster will only do his mechanics at a set timestamp. True, he could do double drill, single drill, single laser, or double laser, but optimized parties (read: people who know the fight's timestamps and aren't flying by the seat of their pants) know A) when he'll start doing those mechanics, B) how to react to each one without skipping a beat in their rotation, and C) that the mechanics alternate and are never repeated in sequence. To quote a friend:

"He always alternates each type (drill/beam) and never does the same one twice
Oh it's single drill first, so next is either buster or stack. It's buster! So next 2 attachments will be double drill then stack beam."

I also did not say that... I said this...
"No they actually won't (be consistent/predictable), because damage is not constant, so the Boss mob getting to that transition phase is not constant, either with your timing nor your CDs. It COULD turn out that way... but it also might not."

Which you're wrong in, as Hyo pointed out design philosophy since Stormblood has been time triggers and not HP triggers.

... and this...
"See that's where we disagree,
Especially when you get to dungeons or raids with a lot of movement, adds, transition phases, and a lot of AoEs going off.
If you don't stay flexible, you will lose DPS... not gain it by sticking to a set in stone "rotation"."

Stay flexible, yes. There is a base rotation that that flexibility needs to be based around though, that's what's calculated and spreadsheeted out, and the fights in Final Fantasy XIV are scripted enough you'll eventually have the rotation for that fight down-pat if you're paying attention and actively looking to improve.

But uh...nah, yeah. You go on pretending FFXIV fights are completely random, and that there's just some super mass hysteria about the whole thing and that rotations are completely bunk. There's a 50% chance that Hades' will happen about half a minute into the fight, we're just unlucky enough that it hasn't been recorded yet.

[Silverquick]

No, I’m simply proving your initial argument wrong, which was that fights aren’t scripted and your rotation is a fight-by-fight rotation (i.e., changes with the fight) because bosses do things in random order.

One problem...
I never said any of the things you just claimed...YOU are the one that said that.

I said THIS...
"... a boss mob can have a random choice of which of its attacks to use. It could be a tank buster, it could be a gaze attack it could be something else. Either way all of those will disrupt your timing, which in turn causes you to alter your rotation to something else."

None of that was about phase mechanics.

I stated...... that the flow of combat was going to dictate your rotation dependent upon how many of these mechanics (and boss attacks) target you and whether or not the phase transition was based on Boss Mob health and Party DPS output, just as you mentioned in the second part of what you talked about.

That was the very reason you used to have to blow your Deathflare early back then, because you'd hit near that transition point and all the BLMs would kick in their Enochian, your previous 20 second window became a 6 second window before the transition happened.

But it varied because if there weren't any BLMs or the DPS's were just plain crappy, your 20 second window was very safe.


EDIT:

OK then, Dr. Summoner, explain to me in detail what exactly about Summoner's rotation gets ruined if, say, a Gaze mechanic happens. Bonus points if you can point out any of the myriad tools Summoner has to mitigate the issue in the first place.

Fair enough... I'll give you a specific two specific ones.

1. That Gaze Attack, if it hits during the time you're running your Trance and you've only got a good 6 seconds left you my have to blow your Deathflare early... so all of those rotations you meant to do while you were in trance are gone and have to be skipped.

2. A specific mechanic is in the Dun Scaith, you could get tethered to a Hand... which will chase you at super speed unless you turn around and face it to stop it. It will kill you instantly if it reaches you... and it will only stop for a certain period of time even if you face it.
You better kill it quick. So you're probably going to have to blow your Festers on it... they are gone at that point. If these were supposed to be in your rotation at a later time, they're now gone and you're going to have to alter your previously planned "rotation".

[Renkei]

Small chime in on scripted fights. Talking in absolutes I side with silverquick. Small anecdote why: My static in ultimate Doesn't have a SAM and our DRG refuses to withhold burst to take down his add quick, so I as the nin conserve my first DWD and Assassinate to bolster my Doll kill time so I can get the first feed. I use the exact same set of GCD's and oGCD's to kill the bot, but because of crit variance on some really heavy hitters (A raiton, DWD, and a bhava go out) there have been times where I've killed my bot without completing the last two GCDs, a spinning edge, and a gust slash, And there have been times where even after both of those GCD's the bot is above 25%.
.

He doesn't have to with-hold his burst to kill the doll, it hits right when his Geirskogul/Nastrond's is up, so you can pericing talon, or even get 1 melee hit off on the add, and then fire both lasers at it and then hit it twice, his first hit should be Raiden thrust on it at 2.50gcd, so the third hit of his will kill it.
He just has to make sure he pulls away when he Geirskogul/Nastrond's it so he doesn't mess up everyone elses timings or pulls any other dolls on accident.

[Kabooa]

1. That Gaze Attack, if it hits during the time you're running your Trance and you've only got a good 6 seconds left you my have to blow your Deathflare early... so all of those rotations you meant to do while you were in trance are gone and have to be skipped.

2. A specific mechanic is in the Dun Scaith, you could get tethered to a Hand... which will chase you at super speed unless you turn around and face it to stop it. It will kill you instantly if it reaches you... and it will only stop for a certain period of time even if you face it.
You better kill it quick. So you're probably going to have to blow your Festers on it... they are gone at that point. If these were supposed to be in your rotation at a later time, they're now gone and you're going to have to alter your previously planned "rotation".

1. Just turn around and continue your rotation as normal.

2. Aetherflow abilities can be spent at any time before the next Aetherflow is ready without disturbing the rotation. The 'rotation' is based around the use of non-chargeable cooldowns. You don't lose those because you had to fester the Hand instead of the boss.