Dancer Flourish is badly designed and not actually enjoyable to use

[JanVanding]

I was gonna quote but since they know I'm aiming at them. Few home truths Hyomin

65th percentile is bad now? When not at full gear cap, not potting and not having tweaked Materia for optimum performance, you're just exposing that you're one of those people that uses parsers for Elitism, not for personal betterment. Blue performance is above average and given the factors I've already given you, it ain't my rotation that's wrong, although I likely have bits to clean up, nobody is perfect, except for you right?

"Shouldn't balance for the average player base" for someone that has allegedly been here a while, do you actually understand what you're saying is completely against the design philosophy of the Dev team. YoshiP wants all able and feel comfortable to clear content. You just straight up stated they shouldn't. That's Elitism in a nutshell and shows you're not the right person to be leading this argument as you're clearly blinded by your own biases. So step off, you're not coming at this from the "average player" perspective but the 1% of the player base that absolutely have an exclusionary attitude.

Any Modicum of respect I may have had for you just disintegrated as soon as you thought you know the design philosophy of the game better than the games director and his very clear mission statement.

Knowledgeable you might be, good at the game, sure, but an Elitist should not lead the argument

The game isn't balanced around the 1% it's balanced around the 99, YoshiPs own mission statement makes that perfectly clear

Or did you straight up ignore the last few sets of patch notes?

[HyoMinPark]

How exactly does one "prove" something so subjective? Lol.

I’m only asking the question, since the implications of your post is that the majority (“the 95%”) find the skill clunky; at least, from what I can tell. Based on the sentence you posted that I bolded and your prior thoughts about Flourish.

The only thing you can do is get together and discuss it. We should do that.

*Checks thread title* Huh. Neat.

It has been discussed in this thread. At length. Most people disagreed with the OP’s assertions that it was clunky and difficult to manage. So, based on the thread alone, the majority is in disagreement that Flourish is a problem skill for the job.

I've given my thoughts on the matter, but they were sadly ignored in favor of derailing the conversation every which way. Oh well. I tried. Still, the devs will see the amount of activity on this thread and see that it's contentious, and I'm certain if they look at ironing out the "lumps" of Dancer, Flourish will be one of the first places they look.

The conversation was on job balance when you joined in, segueing into that from the design of Flourish, and this happened back on Page 5 or thereabouts. I already explained why there may have been confusion between you and I, and I’m not sure if you just ignored that or what. While I can appreciate the effort of “trying to get back on track”, I think you could take a few steps back and try to consider how the conversation as a whole developed into what it was when you suddenly jumped in with talks on job design philosophy in the middle of discussions about job balancing.

Anyways—now you’re asserting that, by this thread, the developers will see that this “lump” needs to be ironed out. But the general consensus of this thread is that Flourish isn’t a problem. So that kind of defeats the points you’re making here. The developers will see one or two posters saying “Flourish bad” while far many others say “Flourish good”. By your “majority” assertion, they wouldn’t change anything based on this thread.

I was gonna quote but since they know I'm aiming at them. Few home truths Hyomin

65th percentile is bad now? When not at full gear cap, not potting and not having tweaked Materia for optimum performance, you're just exposing that you're one of those people that uses parsers for Elitism, not for personal betterment. Blue performance is above average and given the factors I've already given you, it ain't my rotation that's wrong, although I likely have bits to clean up, nobody is perfect, except for you right?

65th percentile is above average, yes; but not by much. You don’t balance job strength around averages or slightly above averages—you need to look at the full potential.

You were the one who mentioned your percentile after attacking me and accusing me of not even being a DNC. I’m sorry that it bothered you that I challenged it. Anyways, your percentile aside....

As for your rotation: there were rotational errors aplenty in it. I checked the log in question. You failed to keep up your Standard Finish buff, you didn’t use subsequent Devilments correctly (they are always used after TF even if you are Partner’d to a DRG), you broke combos, and you also had multiple instances of triple, quad, and quid weaves. You also did not use Standard Finish on cooldown, which impacted your damage (and likely cost you a cast completely). I make rotational errors myself, but I at least recognize them. Can you do that?

I don’t think we should balance around a percentile where things like deaths, rotational errors, and the like are prevalent. That skews the data, and you don’t use skewed data in regards to analysis and balancing. One needs to consider higher performance, where things like egregious rotational errors and deaths are not a thing. You may not have died in your log, but you had errors even if you don’t want to recognize them. It was far more than your gear and no melds that was the issue there. But call me an elitist if you like—I’m just being honest, since you brought it up.

I also never claimed perfection. I know I’m far from perfect. But feel free to put those words in my mouth if you wish. It says more about you than it does me.

"Shouldn't balance for the average player base" for someone that has allegedly been here a while, do you actually understand what you're saying is completely against the design philosophy of the Dev team. YoshiP wants all able and feel comfortable to clear content. You just straight up stated they shouldn't. That's Elitism in a nutshell and shows you're not the right person to be leading this argument as you're clearly blinded by your own biases. So step off, you're not coming at this from the "average player" perspective but the 1% of the player base that absolutely have an exclusionary attitude.

“Allegedly”? Well, I have been playing this game for four years now, and I have been raiding since Creator. Job design may cater to the majority, but job balance should not. I’ve already said this multiple times in this thread, but you need to consider top-level play. If you try to balance around the 50th percentile, then you may end up with a scenario where a job is completely busted at a higher percentile. That’s not elitism and it’s not bias.

I’d hardly consider myself part of the 1%. They’re far better players than myself.

Any Modicum of respect I may have had for you just disintegrated as soon as you thought you know the design philosophy of the game better than the games director and his very clear mission statement.

To be frank, I wasn’t here to earn your respect. So this doesn’t really matter to me. But I will say this: the developers have shown time and time again that they don’t understand the way the playerbase plays this game when they go into design. There are countless examples that I could cite if you would like them, but I’ll just stick with the most infamous few:
—in SB, the developers outright said that they didn’t balance the physical ranged around having a DRG in the party, thereby failing to understand two key things: 1. Why most physical ranged locked a DRG into the party (and, by extension of that, why DRG was meta since Creator), and 2. Why jobs like BRD had such bad powercreep throughout the expansions (both HW and SB, but more so SB since HW could also be because of the BRD-MCH buff wars that took place during).
—healers: I don’t need to say much about this, but the current state of healers clearly shows that the developers don’t understand how the playerbase actually play healers. They certainly don’t listen to feedback provided by healer mains with regards to making healing in content more engaging.
—tanks and the old tank stance: developers never seemed to understand the mentality this playerbase had about tanks being in tank stance in high-end content. Though, they did at least change it to where tank stance no longer penalized you for using it...so I guess that’s something. But the idea of tanks in DPS stances that was so prevalent was not something they ever considered.

Knowledgeable you might be, good at the game, sure, but an Elitist should not lead the argument

The game isn't balanced around the 1% it's balanced around the 99, YoshiPs own mission statement makes that perfectly clear

Or did you straight up ignore the last few sets of patch notes?

As I said above, Yoshida and the developer team do not take the time to look at how the playerbase actually plays their game. That’s why there are design philosophies that continue to fail in it.

[HyperiusUltima]

It doesn't take an elitist to see that your argument is flawed though. The game can't be balanced around the 99%, because that assumes it's a binary situation, which it's not. You balance around the top performers, because they know the class inside and out. Hell, the dev team has made changes specifically because of what the community and top performers can do versus what they planned for (stats on jewelry is a perfect example) and admitted that the community is better at things than they are simply because there are more people than devs. Instead, the real solution, which they've been working towards, is you bring the floor up, so that if you do mess up, it's not as big of a gap as it used to be.

Bringing the floor up is definitely the first thing to do; though you still need to keep a ceiling available(which is pretty high for a handful of jobs). What they need to focus on is listening to what the playerbase wants.

They did the right thing with Ishgardian Restoration by locking it to the World and keeping Wanderers out(lest their content be dead like it is currently due to the huge influx of Wanderers filling the stockpile and sitting in the instance). They just need to apply it to job balance and look at reasoning. For instance, how Samurai clamored about Shoha for an entire patch because it played no role in rotations pre-5.1.

[JanVanding]

....

No words

You actually think you know balance and what's good for the game better than the actual guy that directs the game, plays his own game and regularly hangs with the community.

I'm done with this thread, that's Nth level delusion you got there buddy.
Just remember its a game, we all want to have fun/enjoy the content.

Peace out.

[HyoMinPark]

....

No words

You actually think you know balance and what's good for the game better than the actual guy that directs the game, plays his own game and regularly hangs with the community.

I'm done with this thread, that's Nth level delusion you got there buddy.
Just remember its a game, we all want to have fun/enjoy the content.

Peace out.

I love how you continue to put words in my mouth and resort it ad hominem because you have no other arguments left to you.

It is a well known fact by more than just myself that the developers do not consider the way the playerbase plays their jobs. And it is a known fact that this disconnect leads to failed job design philosophies. If you want to write that off as me being delusional, be my guest. But I guess you’re calling everyone else that has the same opinion delusional. As well as dismissing the multitude of examples that proves this argument.

But I’m the delusional one here. Yeah, perhaps you should step out because this is clearly not a discussion for you.

[ForteNightshade]

snip

Ironically, you have misrepresented mine and fail to understand how balancing works.

What you're describing is job design and quality of life not balance. Not one of your examples has anything remotely to do with job balance sine they aren't providing a numerical advantage but merely making the job easier or more comfortable to play. Once again, that is not job balance but simple quality of life. They are not the same thing, which is why we're essentially arguing pass one another. You're using the wrong terminology.

As for thread derailment. It veered off into job balance before you came hence multiple people aren't simply talking about Dancer now. So there was no derailment, especially seeing the OP's original complaints were either disagreed with or outright disproven several pages ago.

As for a source on the AST thing, it was in the Q&As surrounding the Vegas Fanfest in Oct 2016, which were about a month after 3.4 and the AST buffs. That Fanfest footage is trapped in the awful paid streaming service they used that year, so it's not feasible for me to find at work, but that should be enough for you to get looking... if you're actually interested.

I watched that stream. They never mentioned Astro intentionally being overpowered. It would be a horrible thing to openly acknowledge for any developer anyway, especially because it rendered White Mage entirely obsolete for the last tier.

....

No words

You actually think you know balance and what's good for the game better than the actual guy that directs the game, plays his own game and regularly hangs with the community.

I'm done with this thread, that's Nth level delusion you got there buddy.
Just remember its a game, we all want to have fun/enjoy the content.

Peace out.

When it comes to optimization, the higher end players often know more than the developers because they min/max everything. Which the dev team simply don't have time for. A prime example of this disconnect was the Piercing debuff. They outright acknowledged not balancing Bard and Machinist around Dragoon... which led to the former being seriously overpowered for four tiers.

[JanVanding]

I love how you continue to put words in my mouth and resort it ad hominem because you have no other arguments left to you.

It is a well known fact by more than just myself that the developers do not consider the way the playerbase plays their jobs. And it is a known fact that this disconnect leads to failed job design philosophies. If you want to write that off as me being delusional, be my guest. But I guess you’re calling everyone else that has the same opinion delusional. As well as dismissing the multitude of examples that proves this argument.

But I’m the delusional one here. Yeah, perhaps you should step out because this is clearly not a discussion for you.

I peaced out because I've met your kind before, a dime a dozen 5head geniuses that believe they are masters of the game and all they survey. You made that clear when you decided to go for the "your parse is bad" comment

But ya know what, I'm gonna come at you with some of that patch history to say "no you have an idea how you, personally want the game and that is not the game you're playing"

DRK reworked for accessibility
AST retooled due to some card draws being bad (feast famine)
SMN mini rework for accessibility
NIN rotation reworked to make it less busy/more accessible
RDM mini rework to tone down RNG
DRG rotation simplified for accessibility

And many more instances of mini to full reworks and simplification so the classes are more accessible, rewarding and enjoyable.

I've looked up the rotation you're talking about. It's going to end up reworked because that rotation isn't doable by people that don't have excellent connection (live near the servers) this game has Aussies and Euros like myself playing on the US server (night worker, im awake at US peak) that will be taken into account and likely a mini rework/simplification will be done, as patch history dictates.

You want the class to have a high skill ceiling, that's fine, I'm totally okay with that. I'm not okay with the floor being bad, given patch history, neither is the Dev team.

[HyoMinPark]

I peaced out because I've met your kind before, a dime a dozen 5head geniuses that believe they are masters of the game and all they survey. You made that clear when you decided to go for the "your parse is bad" comment

Except I never actually said your parse was bad—feel free to go back and quote where I said it was bad. I said that it was barely above average (which is a blunt, true statement—50% is average, and 65% is only 15% above that), and barely above average parses tend to have things like rotational errors, deaths, and other factors that skew the data. They are, therefore, bad baselines to do balance around. I pointed out your errors because you were the one insisting that your rotation was not the issue with regards to your damage, but it was. Gear and melds have a lesser impact on performance than multiple rotational errors.

But ya know what, I'm gonna come at you with some of that patch history to say "no you have an idea how you, personally want the game and that is not the game you're playing"

DRK reworked for accessibility
AST retooled due to some card draws being bad (feast famine)
SMN mini rework for accessibility
NIN rotation reworked to make it less busy/more accessible
RDM mini rework to tone down RNG
DRG rotation simplified for accessibility

Let me come right back at you, I suppose. Because I pay attention more than you think I do:

DRK—took the developers until 4.3 to even acknowledge the complaints SB DRK had, and then the rework didn’t even come until 5.0. Oh, and the developers have consistently ignored the complaints about Living Dead since 3.0.

AST—how’s that card rework working for the job? Least played healer still by a significant margin despite being the strongest in terms of rDPS gains. Has the most amount of complaints than any other healer; followed by SCH.

SMN—the job’s broken now just like it was in 4.1. Seems like the developers didn’t pay attention in history class.

NIN—how’s the NIN rework working for the job? In the last two weeks, NIN is the second least played DPS in Savage according to the uploads. The only job it beats is RDM. Personally, I’ve seen mixed reviews on the 5.1 rework. We’ll see how it fairs when the next tier comes out in 5.2 in terms of being played.

RDM—see above. The job is also still being needlessly taxed for both Verraise and Vercure despite SMN having Resurrection and now being the far better choice for caster. This was also the case for almost the entirety of SB, during 4.1 broken SMN and after they toned the job down in 4.2. I think it took the devs until 4.4 to actually give RDM damage buffs in SB. And, at that point, the expansion was basically almost over. Too little too late. And it was still inferior to SMN and BLM.

DRG—DRG was never hard to begin with. Are you counting the removal of Heavy Thrust here? Because it was super hard to press one button after your two 5-step combos, I guess?

And many more instances of mini to full reworks and simplification so the classes are more accessible, rewarding and enjoyable.

Simplification does not inherently mean satisfaction, though.

WAR has been simplified. I see people complain about that a lot.

BRD was simplified in ShB to “close the gap” between the top-tier and those at the lower-tier. This was met with dissatisfaction from a lot of raiders (not all 1% speedkillers) who found SB BRD’s complexity rewarding. Not that SB BRD was remotely hard, but optimizing the DoTs and manipulating Repertoire was extremely satisfying for those who could do it at a high level. BRD gameplay in general has been criticized since 5.0 launched due to the removal of support, and even the re-addition of song effects haven’t been enough to make those complaints go away.

MCH got a really nice rework, I’ll admit...but the developers still failed to address the issue of weaving with 1.5s GCDs in Hypercharge windows much like they ignored the complaints about Rapid Fire in Wildfire windows back in 4.x.

SCH gameplay was simplified and it has the second most amount of healer complaints after AST and the new card system. Healers in general were all homogenized and simplified going into ShB, and have not been received well at all. Healer gameplay in general has been a huge source of contention: healing is more broken and braindead than ever, despite the developers claiming they were going to “make healers heal more”; and a lot of this is a mixture of both job design and content design.

In addition to these, 5.05 saw panic buffs to MNK that completely broke the job. Other than that, they have still failed to really listen to what MNK mains want since HW. SB MNK complained about Tornado Kick, which was a viable rotation for a time but is now dead; and they hated the slow on Riddle of Fire, which was only recently removed in 5.05; and GL management, which was, again, only implementing in 5.05....4+ years after all the complaints about GL.

The developers don’t always listen. And they are slow to implement changes. And they do have design philosophies that clash with how this playerbase plays this game. They may have gotten a bit better in ShB about addressing jobs and their issues—but there are still those that they are ignoring even amongst the NIN/SMN reworks they did. A lot of this, I think, has to do with their stubbornness to not see the systems that they implement fail.

I've looked up the rotation you're talking about. It's going to end up reworked because that rotation isn't doable by people that don't have excellent connection (live near the servers) this game has Aussies and Euros like myself playing on the US server (night worker, im awake at US peak) that will be taken into account and likely a mini rework/simplification will be done, as patch history dictates.

Uh, which rotation did I ever bring up to you? Unless you’re talking about just standard DNC rotation?

Does your ping prevent you from using Standard Step every 30 seconds? Does it prevent you from using Devilment after Technical Finish? Finishing your combo instead of doing Cascade > Cascade twice in a row? Prevent using your GCD procs? Does it prevent double-weaving feathers? That would likely be the only one that would actually impact you because of ping, so here’s the solution: single-weave instead. Because, other than that, DNC doesn’t have ping problems. I think you’re confusing it with MCH.

Flourish itself is not heavily impacted by ping because it’s an oGCD and you can single-weave it with ease even at high pings. I don’t have an excellent connection. My internet is actually super hot garbage and I use a VPN to mitigate my ping.

You want the class to have a high skill ceiling, that's fine, I'm totally okay with that. I'm not okay with the floor being bad, given patch history, neither is the Dev team.

DNC isn’t bad as it stands now. That’s literally what I’ve been saying to you this entire thread. That’s what any DNC mentor or theorycrafter would tell you if you went into the Balance and asked them about what we’ve talked about here. If you don’t see the results you want to, perhaps look at how you’re playing it and find ways to improve.

[ForteNightshade]

I peaced out because I've met your kind before, a dime a dozen 5head geniuses that believe they are masters of the game and all they survey. You made that clear when you decided to go for the "your parse is bad" comment

Considering you brought up your own logs first; using them to bolster your flawed argument. It's just a tad hypothetical to now criticism someone else for essentially doing the same thing, except HyoMin did it to show she's knowledgeable about Dancer. And that was only after you accused her of not even playing it.

DRK reworked for accessibility
AST retooled due to some card draws being bad (feast famine)
SMN mini rework for accessibility
NIN rotation reworked to make it less busy/more accessible
RDM mini rework to tone down RNG
DRG rotation simplified for accessibility

- Dark Knight complaints were not even acknowledged for six months despite numerous threads throughout Stormblood providing feedback and criticism to the overall design, especially Dark Arts. They were initially waved off because "Dark Knight got WF in Ultimate," then told to wait until Shadowbringers. Not to mention, Living Dead has been the redheaded step child of the tank invuls since Heavensward. They still have yet to even acknowledge this problem even when it's becoming an increasing annoyance for healers nowadays.

- Astro currently has almost three times less uploads in Savage compared to White Mage despite now having the highest rDPS. Prior to 5.1, they were upwards of five times less and at release the job was a complete mess that couldn't even heal Living Dead. Simply put, the new card system that no one asked for, has been near universally despised.

- A rework which has once again made Summoner the undisputed king Caster and left Red Mage as the inferior alternative. Ironically, this exact problem happened in 4.1 despite people telling the devs repeatedly Red Mage's damage was too low at the time. A year later (4.4) they wound up buffing Red Mage... because it's damage was too low.

- Ninja, I'll grant, was a good change though it remains a wait and see

- Dragoon lost Heavy Thrust people too many people wouldn't keep it up. Otherwise, the job barely changed at all from Stormblood.

It is well documented that devs take a long time to implement changes. In many cases, such as the healers, their design philosophy heavily clashes with how we actually play the jobs. They've also been quite stubborn; Monk certainly comes to mind where they were forced to panic buff it to absurdity in 5.05 simply because they refused to implement changes people have been asking for years.

[Neela]

I peaced out because I've met your kind before, a dime a dozen 5head geniuses that believe they are masters of the game and all they survey. You made that clear when you decided to go for the "your parse is bad" comment

facing the truth hurts hm? Min always is objective other high-level player wouldn't even take the time to discuss your arguments cause most of them are just BS and prove u don't know what you are talking about. tbh I met your kind before, even worse I was one of them if it comes to smn. but you know what... you should take advantage of those who actually are just better than you and are digging deeper into in-depth facts than just the mimimim-community posts. Min also said its hard to take you serious with the mindset to use all procs on cd (what indeed is a basic error) - now your own parse shows u dont even know how to handle standard/technical and devilment... u proved you're inexperience more than once in your comments - and facing your own play/numbers just caught you now. another proof you dont know what you are talking about. a point you can't deny cause its black on white. is your last resort really to claim Min as an ego elitist?... that's poor and sad and it clearly answered Mins question: " I make errors myself, but I at least recognize them. Can you do that?" - the answer is u simply can't. I guess no-one is hurt if you leave the discussion as promoted tho : /

Good luck ^^