Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

[Puksi]

1) We passed out, and somehow it was brought under temporary control again, I forget if they explained how. But we were going to become an "abomination" that would do just that, Emet-Selch said something along the lines of we'd kill our friends or they would kill us--so I am not exactly sure what the point you're trying to make is. We were the Warrior Of Light, buffered by Hydaelyn's blessing, which in the end wasn't going to save us. Vauthry was an unborn Hume, no blessing. That's some baby if he could resist as an infant what the WoL could not, you'd think he would've passed Emet-Selch's test for us.

2) Of course I do. Neither of them had any control over the Lightwarden's corruption that was driving them to do so. It's what I've been saying the entire time, lmao.

3) Again -- Titania had the ability to speak, and on a corruption-twisted level, reason. Vauthry is not unique in that regard.

We covered this part already, though I really wish the Ascians were as interested in the preservation of life in that doomsday timeline as you are, we could've saved poor G'raha a lot of bad acting.

4) I guess it depends on what "Jet-Black Villains" means, because that actually sounds a lot like the Ascians, they really rock those robes.

[tokinokanatae]

Look, I'm going to assume you're not reading in bad faith, so I'm really at a loss at this point.

I don't think I've been unclear that there's a distinct difference from being "harmful"--in the sense that sin eaters and mankind are incapable of co-existence because of the basic function of sin eaters--and "evil"--which are actions designed to cause unnecessary suffering to those the actions are directed at. Titania was not locked away in the castle because their people thought they were being too mean or too violent to others, they were locked away because they turned people into sin eaters. Vauthry does not do that. I would expect a pure sin eater Vauthry to just turn the entirety of Eulmore citizens into sin eaters and continue their spread, as every other sin eater in the game does.

The things Vauthry is hated for are things he would be capable of doing without being any part sin eater, so how can you possibly blame him being a sin eater for people not feeling sorry for him?

[MrThinker]

1) We passed out, and somehow it was brought under temporary control again, I forget if they explained how.

Ryne 'bound' the Light within us using her Oracle powers to temporarily halt the full transformation. Temporarily being the key word. It is also what Thancred yells at her to do during the cutscene before the Dying Gasp before she gets knocked out by Emet.

Titania was not locked away in the castle because their people thought they were being too mean or too violent to others, they were locked away because they turned people into sin eaters. Vauthry does not do that.

Just so we all remember, it is implied that Vauthry does indeed turn people into Sin Eaters, in a ceremony known as 'ascension', and then goes on to turn the newly transformed Eaters in meol.

[Puksi]

Ryne 'bound' the Light within us using her Oracle powers to temporarily halt the full transformation. Temporarily being the key word. It is also what Thancred yells at her to do during the cutscene before the Dying Gasp before she gets knocked out by Emet.



Just so we all remember, it is implied that Vauthry does indeed turn people into Sin Eaters, in a ceremony known as 'ascension', and then goes on to turn the newly transformed Eaters in meol.

Thank you for saving me a trip to an Unending Journey, lmao. I finished Shadowbringers way too late at night and was running on adrenaline.

And yep, Vauthry did turn people into Eaters. Not sure how Titania turning their subjects into Eaters wasn't violent or mean? Tesleen's cutscene was exactly that.

It could be argued without the Lightwarden he would've grown up bad anyway, but he WAS corrupted by a Lightwarden, by Emet-Selch. Not by choice, not even born, never asked. He was the Ascians' tool. (I seem to recall the first dialogue option to Emet-Selch in the aftermath even said "You made Vauthry.")

If someone is angry at his deeds, they're going to have to be angry at the Ascians.

[tokinokanatae]

Vauthry turned people into eaters at his discretion. Something else we don't see sin eaters doing--if they catch you, you're either dead or turned. Titania didn't have a choice; turning people into sin eaters was a byproduct of them existing. Vauthry can not only choose to not turn people into sin eaters, he can maliciously direct them to attack in ways they won't otherwise do.

So tell me, which arm did Emet-Selch twist to force Vauthry to attack Lakeland again? How did he manipulate Vauthry into flying over in the aftermath, gloating?

[Puksi]

Vauthry turned people into eaters at his discretion. Something else we don't see sin eaters doing--if they catch you, you're either dead or turned. Titania didn't have a choice; turning people into sin eaters was a byproduct of them existing. Vauthry can not only choose to not turn people into sin eaters, he can maliciously direct them to attack in ways they won't otherwise do.

So tell me, which arm did Emet-Selch twist to force Vauthry to attack Lakeland again? How did he manipulate Vauthry into flying over in the aftermath, gloating?

You keep moving the goalposts. If Titania had no control over what they did, then neither would Vauthry. They both were living beings corrupted by a Lightwarden, although Titania was by accident, and Vauthry was by Emet-Selch's design. Both would have the same madness and violent tendencies as a "byproduct of them existing". And Cylva's dialogue very much implied the Ascians kept their tabs on him and made sure he did what he was made to do, see the Cardinal Virtues.

I don't know how much plainer I can make this one, either. Emet-Selch made Vauthry. Emet-Selch gave that infant no choice. Emet-Selch is the one you need to blame if you are angry at what Vauthry did in the monstrous life of madness and violence Emet-Selch forced on him, because had it not been for Emet-Selch, Lakeland, Ascension, meol, the Virtues, and any number of things we were not shown would not have happened.

[tokinokanatae]

Vauthry roamed around free, Titania did not. Vauthry did not attack Lakeland because he was a sin eater, he attacked them because they weren't doing what he wanted them to do. His actions have nothing to do with Emet-Selch. The only thing Emet-Selch gave him was the power to use sin eaters to attack people, he did not coordinate Vauthry's attacks for him.

Where does it end? Emet-Selch was tempered by Zodiark. Surely he can't possibly be blamed for any atrocities he commits, right?

[Lersayil]

...

Where does it end? Emet-Selch was tempered by Zodiark. Surely he can't possibly be blamed for any atrocities he commits, right?

Oh god, please no. I know you said it ironically here, but this explanation (just by mentioning it) makes me cringe inside a bit. This is still a possible direction the writers could take the story in, and it would devalue SO much of the happenings in ShB (not to mention Emet as a character). Pinning the whole thing on Zodiark (even partially) would excuse Emet of all his actions, and kick us back into the comfortable, but ultimately boring world of binary morality.

[Rosenstrauch]

Oh god, please no. I know you said it ironically here, but this explanation (just by mentioning it) makes me cringe inside a bit. This is still a possible direction the writers could take the story in, and it would devalue SO much of the happenings in ShB (not to mention Emet as a character). Pinning the whole thing on Zodiark (even partially) would excuse Emet of all his actions, and kick us back into the comfortable, but ultimately boring world of binary morality.

It gets worse: As a primal, Zodiark's actions, ideals, and even consciousness are shaped by what his summoners wished for him to be when they created him. So taking this train of thought to its logical extreme, not even Zodiark can be held responsible. He can't be blamed for tempering the Ascians, as whether or not it was a design quirk or intentional, he was made to do so by the Ascians. And the Ascians can't be held responsible for what he does because he tempered them, stripping their free will. Everyone gets a free pass!

[Lersayil]

It gets worse: As a primal, Zodiark's actions, ideals, and even consciousness are shaped by what his summoners wished for him to be when they created him. So taking this train of thought to its logical extreme, not even Zodiark can be held responsible. He can't be blamed for tempering the Ascians, as whether or not it was a design quirk or intentional, he was made to do so by the Ascians. And the Ascians can't be held responsible for what he does because he tempered them, stripping their free will. Everyone gets a free pass!

Yeah, that would be worse than I was imagining. Though I guess it would tickle my absurdist tendencies...

But what if Zodiark was designed to temper? Wouldn't that make the amaurotians reprehensible? Since they also would've designed the tenets Zodiark would impose on the tempered?