Dancer Flourish is badly designed and not actually enjoyable to use

[ForteNightshade]

Yet we're dead last on the parsers aren't we?

So what do you propose? More potency? That just means when they fix the issue of feast or famine we'll end up laughably overpowered like has happened with SMN now they simplified their rotation to not be so busy.

Lowered cooldowns on tech/Devilment? More busy/ups our burst still doesn't solve our feast/famine issue SE does not like too busy as shown by NIN and SMN changes as well.

That's why I'm proposing giving us an extra stack or two on Flourish to give us better bad luck protection

Dancer and Bard should always be last on the parse. Bear in mind, all parse overlays still go by Personal DPS which FFlogs deviated from. Therefore, what you're seeing on the parse itself isn't your actual damage contribution since Dancer's numbers tie into their utility.

Proc based jobs are always going to fluctuate due to the nature of their job design. Nevertheless, it all evens out in the end. Maybe you don't get procs early in the fight but suddenly get several back to back. There is little need to buff Dancer unless the dev team finally moves off their excessive mobility and buffs all jobs accordingly.

[HyoMinPark]

Yet we're dead last on the parsers aren't we?

Where were you expecting DNC to be? At the top? Because that would put us in the same boat as SMN: broken. We shouldn’t be at the top of a parse; we’re a pseudo-support job. When you start placing support jobs at the top of a parse, then you run into problems.

So what do you propose? More potency? That just means when they fix the issue of feast or famine we'll end up laughably overpowered like has happened with SMN now they simplified their rotation to not be so busy.

I would propose more potency. Perhaps just a smidge in Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall. They are force proc’d enough that it could make a difference—after all; 50 potency on Rising Windmill and Bloodshower also helped make a difference. The “feast and famine” is not that terrible at level cap. I’d improve it at lower levels by readjusting when we learn Flourish—primarily, I’d move Flourish pre-70 at the least, to train DNCs into using it earlier and helping with the RNG. Because your RNG improves once you’re able to force proc your feather-granting skills.

Lowered cooldowns on tech/Devilment? More busy/ups our burst still doesn't solve our feast/famine issue SE does not like too busy as shown by NIN and SMN changes as well.

No need to change the cooldowns for TF or Devilment. 2 minute between bursts is fine, and goes well with Flourish’s 1 minute cooldown.

That's why I'm proposing giving us an extra stack or two on Flourish to give us better bad luck protection

I’d like you to try not spending your feathers the minute you get them, and then tell me how you feel about RNG. I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

[JanVanding]

Where were you expecting DNC to be? At the top? Because that would put us in the same boat as SMN: broken. We shouldn’t be at the top of a parse; we’re a pseudo-support job. When you start placing support jobs at the top of a parse, then you run into problems.



I would propose more potency. Perhaps just a smidge in Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall. They are force proc’d enough that it could make a difference—after all; 50 potency on Rising Windmill and Bloodshower also helped make a difference. The “feast and famine” is not that terrible at level cap. I’d improve it at lower levels by readjusting when we learn Flourish—primarily, I’d move Flourish pre-70 at the least, to train DNCs into using it earlier and helping with the RNG. Because your RNG improves once you’re able to force proc your feather-granting skills.



No need to change the cooldowns for TF or Devilment. 2 minute between bursts is fine, and goes well with Flourish’s 1 minute cooldown.



I’d like you to try not spending your feathers the minute you get them, and then tell me how you feel about RNG. I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

Not asking for us to be top, I'm saying our support skills are overvalued just like the BRDs.

5% consistent bonus to partner and self 5% for 50 seconds to team critical and direct rate by 20% for 20 seconds and a 10% damage reduction for 15 sec that won't stack with BRD or MCH version. Coming in at 11k dps

Meanwhile the AST (my main class) offers a massive damage buff opener which they can cover all dps with offering a minimum of 10% to each they card/Destiny, can consistently keep buffing damage throughout while waiting for destiny, have burst in the form of Earth Star/Giant Star which also doubles as a delayed area heal, consistency through DoTs and are parsing in full gear 8-9k dps. All while being a strong healer with good OGCDs and instants they can use between focused heal windows to keep damage/draw buffs flowing.

Now, explain to me, how it's acceptable for a DNC to offer their buffs, no Rez and bottom tier dps when you can just take an AST in the healer spot, take a MCH for the extra mitigation or if you don't need it, take the best dps in the game with the priceless Rezz skill?

People called me stupid when I said SMN had been over buffed on patch day, do the math, you're a smart person. We are in danger of being discluded and you're in denial of it.

[HyoMinPark]

Not asking for us to be top, I'm saying our support skills are overvalued just like the BRDs.

5% consistent bonus to partner and self 5% for 50 seconds to team critical and direct rate by 20% for 20 seconds and a 10% damage reduction for 15 sec that won't stack with BRD or MCH version. Coming in at 11k dps

Let me correct you on some things, because your information is incorrect once again:

+5% damage bonus to self and partner at 100% uptime (Standard Finish last 60 seconds—you use Standard Step on cooldown); +5% to party for 20 seconds (Technical Finish); +20% Critical Hit/D.Hit for self and partner, not the full party (Devilment). 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds (Shield Samba) that doesn’t need to stack with MCH’s Tactician or BRD’s Troubadour because there’s literally no reason for it to.

And DNC’s damage is coming in at the following DPS values (95th percentile)—

E1S—
rDPS: 12,682.73
aDPS: 11,611.28

E2S—
rDPS: 14,267.84
aDPS: 12,603.29

E3S—
rDPS: 13,157.16
aDPS: 12,002.44

E4S—
rDPS: 13,468.97
aDPS: 11,930.76

You are looking at your parser and thinking that the number you see there is all the damage you’re offering—but you need to consider what your rDPS actually is because DNC offers a lot of buffs to the raid. Unfortunately, parsers don’t show that—the only way for you to really see it is to upload to FFLogs—but DNC’s total contribution includes more than just personal DPS. In terms of rDPS (the metric that matters), DNC is doing well over 11,000 at the high levels of play. Perhaps check your numbers before you start quoting them, because quoting incorrect DPS values isn’t helping your argument here.

Meanwhile the AST (my main class) offers a massive damage buff opener

I’m going to cut this right here: because why are you comparing DNC to AST? A physical ranged DPS versus a healer? There will never be a situation where DNC ever competes with AST for a raid slot, so this comparison is, frankly, irrelevant to this entire conversation.

Now, explain to me, how it's acceptable for a DNC to offer their buffs, no Rez and bottom tier dps when you can just take an AST in the healer spot, take a MCH for the extra mitigation or if you don't need it, take the best dps in the game with the priceless Rezz skill?

Why are you still comparing DNC to AST? They are not comparable because they are entirely separate roles. AST competes against WHM and SCH (and is still losing to both by a significant margin in all fights), and DNC competes with BRD and MCH (and is actually relatively equal to them in terms of uploads). The three physical ranged are relatively close to one another to the point where it doesn’t matter who you chose as your physical ranged. The only one that really lags behind now is BRD—not DNC (although, BRD is pretty good in TEA right now because you can multi-DoT for two straight phases just about). In terms of TEA prog, the streams I’ve watched haven’t really favored any of the physical ranged over the other, because they are all viable for the content.

DNC not having a Raise is irrelevant—that’s why there’s a caster slot (if your party really wants the extra raise). So not sure why you’re even bringing that up, unless you’re still trying to compare the job to a healer class. Again, they aren’t comparable.

People called me stupid when I said SMN had been over buffed on patch day, do the math, you're a smart person. We are in danger of being discluded and you're in denial of it.

Why don’t you actually look at the data and stop making false comparisons between two jobs in two entirely separate roles to back up your argument?

The last I heard from the physical ranged theorycrafters, all 3 physical ranged are viable and are not at the risk of total exclusion for double caster as we were back in Patch 5.0. BRD is suffering a bit in Savage right now—but actually doing fairly well in TEA—so it may require tweaks. But we are not at risk of a double-caster or triple ranged+caster scenario like before.

I’m sorry, I’ll listen to them before I will listen to you.

[JanVanding]

Why would I bring up the AST in the conversation?

Because it's what makes the DNC and BRD replaceable.

Bring an AST plus WHM or SCH, then SMN and any combination of dps the BRD and DNC are replaced.

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

Now let's see, what class struggles in those kinds of situations since they have a 2 minute timer on their burst windows.... Hmmm

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

Not low dps to burst window.

I'm honestly past caring if you want to listen or not, 11k dps is low (your figures back that up for heavens sake adps in the 11k range) and you're clearly doubling down despite the evidence you're presenting running counter to your own arguments!

Our adps needs to go up by 1k to be considered "in a good spot" (does that sound like I want overbuffing? No, I want us to pull our weight not feel like others have to make up for us constantly)

And for heavens sake, learn what power budget is and why the DNC and BRD are pretty much in trouble if they don't get some help. They're underbudgeted

You know it

I know it

The forum knows it

Every top raider knows it

Reddit knows it

And I don't doubt the balancing team know it too.

One of the top rated threads in here is about how poorly rdps (MCH/DNC/BRD) are doing right now.

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

[HyoMinPark]

Why would I bring up the AST in the conversation?

Because it's what makes the DNC and BRD replaceable.

Bring an AST plus WHM or SCH, then SMN and any combination of dps the BRD and DNC are replaced.

No, it doesn’t. Because even with an Di AST/SCH comp or (heaven forbid) WHM/Noct AST comp, that doesn’t impact the DPS composition. There are 4 DPS slots in a full party: 2 are usually for melee, 1 for a physical ranged, and 1 for a caster. If triple melee+caster or double caster was a viable comp, we’d be seeing it. But are we? No. Those were rare to see even back before 5.1 when the physical ranged role as a whole was technically inferior to double BLM.

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

I’m benchmarking Savage because EX barely takes any skill anymore. Hades EX is not harder than Titan or Leviathan—the odd-number primals usually fall between the second and third floors. If you want to benchmark a job’s true performance, you look at higher-end content. That’s not EX. It’s barely Savage at this point, but Savage is the best we have right now until TEA results come in.

As for TEA, I literally just said in my previous post that the physical ranged theorycrafters have listed all three physical ranged as being viable options for TEA. BRD pulls ahead of DNC in Living Liquid and Brute Justice+Cruise Chaser because it can double-DoT, but DNC is not a bad choice. Neither is MCH. All world prog groups are carrying any of the three right now. But I’m just assuming you skipped over the part where I mentioned this, since it’s clear you aren’t actually reading what I’m saying.

Now let's see, what class struggles in those kinds of situations since they have a 2 minute timer on their burst windows.... Hmmm

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

Not low dps to burst window.

It’s an EX primal. It doesn’t take much to clear those, and they are a poor benchmark to base any job around, really. If you are struggling in Hades EX on DNC, that’s purely a you problem. You’re doing something incredibly wrong with your damage if you find yourself feeling gimped in there.

DNC burst isn’t inconsistent either; I’ve already addressed this. You’re focusing too much on feather RNG and Saber Dance RNG, but Technical Finish windows are designed for you to already have as many resources as possible pre-loaded before your burst (feathers), and Flourish gives you 5 proc’d skills to work with during the window. It’s also very rare you won’t have at least one Saber Dance during a TF window with a full party of 8 granting you Esprit. There’s a bit of fluctuation in terms of total damage, but I think you’re way over-exaggerating it.

I'm honestly past caring if you want to listen or not, 11k dps is low (your figures back that up for heavens sake adps in the 11k range) and you're clearly doubling down despite the evidence you're presenting running counter to your own arguments!

The numbers I quoted are actually higher than your 11,000 you quoted: the lowest DNC came in at was 11,611.28 aDPS in E1S—but I see now that you’re trying to shift the goalposts by quoting “11k range” for aDPS. But you’re still ignoring the key point here: there’s more to DNC than just aDPS: DNC is a support job—you need to look at its rDPS to know what it’s actually giving a raid, and its rDPS contribution is not low. It’s certainly not 11,000 in any Savage fight at a high level. I don’t know how many times I can repeat that until you actually understand it. aDPS is not the important metric here.

My evidence doesn’t counter my arguments. It supports it. You said that DNC only came in at 11,000 DPS (I assumed personal DPS was your argument here). I provided numbers that proved it comes in much higher in aDPS at a high level of play; and even higher when you consider rDPS, which is the metric you want to look at for a job that buffs a party because that is its total contribution to the raid. DNC gives more than just personal damage—it gives buffs. So you have to factor in those as well. You seem to be stubbornly ignoring this, and only caring about the number you see on your parse. There’s much more to it than that.

Our adps needs to go up by 1k to be considered "in a good spot" (does that sound like I want overbuffing? No, I want us to pull our weight not feel like others have to make up for us constantly)

If our aDPS were to increase to ~12,000 at the low tier of a 95th percentile, then the developers will likely nerf our support to compensate for that. If you feel like others are making up for your short-comings, perhaps that is an issue with your personal performance.

And for heavens sake, learn what power budget is and why the DNC and BRD are pretty much in trouble if they don't get some help. They're underbudgeted

You know it

I know it

The forum knows it

Every top raider knows it

Reddit knows it

And I don't doubt the balancing team know it too.

Really? We all know it, do we?

Then why are mentors in the DNC Balance channels telling people that DNC is fine right now? Or that all three physical ranged are viable for TEA? Why are world prog groups rolling with a physical ranged when they could just take double caster for the Raise you keep raving about? Why are top raiders even participating in TEA on DNC?

Perhaps it’s because we’re not nearly as dead as you seem to think? Perhaps because they also enjoy the job; and perhaps, since it’s as viable as the other three physical ranged, it doesn’t matter to then if it has lower personal damage? It was literally said in the DNC Balance channel yesterday when someone asked which physical ranged should they take into TEA: “BRD pulls ahead because it can multi-DoT, but all three are equally viable.”

One of the top rated threads in here is about how poorly rdps (MCH/DNC/BRD) are doing right now.

Are you talking about this thread? Because that thread was made before Patch 5.1—when the physical ranged were actually less valuable to a raid than taking 2 casters and sacrificing the 1% main stat party bonus from bringing a ranged. Patch 5.1 gave us a roughly ~4% increase to our damage. Did you miss those buffs? It may seem small, but it was enough to push us away from technically being worse than double BLM or triple melee+BLM back in 5.0 and 5.05. Even back then, though, it was rare to see a physical ranged excluded from even speedkills. There were only 3 ranked pre-5.1 for E2S and E3S that did triple melee+BLM. All other speedkills had a physical ranged.

If you mean this thread, I don’t see anything in here about the physical ranged being dead weight or unviable. But it’s not exactly a “top rated thread”; the opening post has a grand total of 5 likes.

If you mean another thread, link it please. In fact, why don’t you link all your data? And your sources? Seems like I’m the only one providing any information here. Why not give something concrete to back up your arguments for a change? The only “source” you’ve mentioned (but never really confirmed) is a possible caster main on Twitch talking about physical ranged jobs that he doesn’t even have unlocked or leveled.

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

The theorycrafters are literally saying the exact same things I’m saying. I’m parroting them at this point. I’ve even been in the Balance asking and re-confirming some of the points that I am making to you here.

[Neela]

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

you really should start listening... and stop talking... : /

I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

can feel ya : /

[pandabearcat]

Just FYI ranged are brought to ultimate because tactician is necessary, and the 1% raid damage for having a ranged is meaningful. If they were just a bit worse on dps, I'm fairly certain they'd bring another caster or melee. In fact, that is what happened prior to the buffs.

DNC are "fine" in the same way that all ranged are "fine", because they're OK.

But they (ranged) are the lowest dps.

On *every* fight. This should be considered an issue.

Yes ranged have "movement advantage". But if that advantage doesn't actually translate to higher damage, then the point is moot.

Put it another way, if the penalties for playing other roles (can't cast while moving, can't melee unless melee range) were actual penalties, then there should be real fights where ranged outdps caster/melee right? There should be -some- fight that plays to ranged strengths right?

But there isn't. That is the issue.

There is no point to having a movement advantage, because there aren't actually any fights where that means you do more damage than other classes.

[ForteNightshade]

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

You do realize several world prog groups are running Bard or Dancer, yes? In fact, they make up the majority in terms of range representation. The idea Astro and Summoner replaces either is absolute nonsense. In no scenario, ever, does a healer impact the DPS party composition.

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

And yet despite the range uploads are as followed:

Machinst: 21,771
Dancer: 21,341
Bard: 19,049

They beat out Ninja, Monk, Red Mage and Black Mage by several thousand. In what universe does this suggest Dancer and Bard are endanger of being replaced? By that logic, Monk may as well be deleted from existence; Dancer has more than 10,000 uploads. Simply put, in numerous instances now... math has not supported your arguments.

Put it another way, if the penalties for playing other roles (can't cast while moving, can't melee unless melee range) were actual penalties, then there should be real fights where ranged outdps caster/melee right? There should be -some- fight that plays to ranged strengths right?

But there isn't. That is the issue.

There is no point to having a movement advantage, because there aren't actually any fights where that means you do more damage than other classes.

No? The whole idea is they don't want the Range to out-dps melee jobs because it would make them inferior for certain fights. If there were zero mobility tax, you'd bring only one melee for the 1% and they'd suffer even more in PF because no one does uptime strats. There always needs to be some tax, just not by a 1,000.

[pandabearcat]

You completely miss the point, and actually reinforce exactly what I'm saying.

The idea is this, lets say ranged is last for 3/4 fights in a tier. You would then expect one fight in the tier, a super movement fight, where ranged are #1. That would make sense, in that every role and class has strengths and weaknesses, and there should be content that plays to a given role's strengths. And let me reiterate, I'm not saying like, on this fight ranged is 2000 dps above the others. No, I just mean a fight where they are competitive for first. Lets say a fight where MCH beats out BLM by 500 dps.

But instead now, ranged is always last, no matter whether its a stand still fight or a heavy movement fight. This isn't right.

Imagine you had the choice between two cars, one that's better on roads and one better offroad. But every race you do is 99% on a road and 1% offroad, and the offroad car always loses. Why would you ever pick the offroad car?

This is the scenario we are in now. And the answer is "because 1% role bonus exists". That isn't a merit of ranged, that is just, well, I guess we have to have -one- ranged. Given the choice, a raid leader putting together a top tier speedrun group would never have more than one ranged.

And lets just all remember, that this is what the discussion on balance is about. Everyone knows every class is viable for all content. We've established that. What we're discussing now is balance, and how they arrive on such balance. My point is their philosophy for balancing (or at least, what this forum assumes is the philosophy) is flawed.

To put it in the analogy again, what I'm saying is, lets make races 50% on road and 50% off road. Or 70% on road and 30% off road. Or something so that you can say, yea, this is why we want to bring more ranged, because this fight they do the best.

tl;dr: there is no point for ranged to have a movement advantage if despite the advantage, they are still always last. It's not an advantage unless there is content in which they excel at.