Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[ValStormbreaker]

I'm fine with SMN being as powerful as it is, because in spite of it having more utility than BLM, it's the most complex and demanding of the casters to play. What I'm NOT okay with is the watering down of weaving and simplifying of the gameplay. I believe jobs should be rewarding to play relative to the complexity of what it takes to master. I was very fine with pre-5.1 SMN in terms of gameplay and weaving, with my only complaint being that Outburst is a poor substitute for Shadow Flare, with its damage and very slow recast time, and would rather Shadow Flare be put back. Being both a SMN and MNK main, I am really averse with many of the changes being removals of oGCDs or putting what should be oGCDs onto the GCD to minimize weaving, which interrupts the flow of gameplay and removes the fluidity and speed that makes the more demanding jobs fun to play.

Damage potencies can be adjusted upwards or downwards all SE likes, but to me, the biggest turn-off of 5.1 SMN is moving the pet action onto the GCD. This forcibly slows the job down which I really don't like the feel of.

As for RDM... I wouldn't say it's a "fellow raise caster,". Yes, SMN has a raise... but it's almost preferable to not have to use it. Rotation-wise, having to spend your Swiftcast on an emergency raise, or having to long-cast a raise, can be a pretty substantial DPS loss for SMN. For RDM, because its DPS is so low, AND it has dual-cast, it's not nearly as big of a deal. I don't think RDM, with as simplistic and brain-dead as its rotation is, needs a buff. SMN deserves to be as powerful as it is... though I would say, only that much if the pet action is removed from the GCD and is returned to being an oGCD so players have to use effort again to warrant outputting that much damage with their own skill. I do not think it deserves to be this powerful so long as the job continues to be watered down because some players are averse to weaving.

[dinnertime]

They watered down and simplified the gameplay because that's what the common complaints were about. 5.0 required nonsensical amount of weaving (and double-weaving which is a problem for high-ping players) for little payoff from it, which in turn made the gameplay tedious or difficult for most players. It was "complex" but unrewarding because of how tedious, weak and how unnecessary it all was it was. The 5.1 changes are acceptable in my opinion, and did fix three or even four of the most common complaints of Summoner. Sure, they could've done much better with the changes because right now Egi Assault and Dreadwyrm Trance don't synergize with each other which makes the latter kind of redundant, but the amount of mobility Summoner has now is really satisfying, and our damage is a lot better.

Yeah, SMN could probably use more ogcds again. Sometimes I just find myself doing less than I used to when one of the few things I liked about Summoner was it felt 'busy', but they need to be careful of how much/often it'll have.

[Akiudo]

For RDM, because its DPS is so low, AND it has dual-cast, it's not nearly as big of a deal.

right here what you are saying, dual cast or no dual cast literally can be boiled down to Redmage dps sucks either way so rezzing doesn't hurt them as much Sorry but is this really the argument you want to make ? cause by that logic redmage may aswell deal 0 dps but get limitless mana, would make the rezz free and give it its own niche

[Nemekh]

What am I reading about RDM? What an incredibly out of touch position, ValStormbreaker.

SMN should always raise over a healer and RDM if we have Swiftcast up due to the fact we lose the least GCD damage - unless we're in FBT, where doing so costs a Brand of Purgatory short of having BLM levels of speed and even that's a single target parity loss vs RDM 5s spells before resource mana losses. RDM loses more GCD potency in general and gauge mana per Dualcast or Swift raise than SMN and healers.

RDMs, however, should Dualcast raise over a SMN and healers hard casting a raise for personal and party damage reasons, over healers having to expend MP if it's a scarcer resource for an encounter and especially over either hard casting if time is of the urgency to get bodies up for mechanics. For such reasons it's also why SMN should prioritise getting people up with faster hard cast raises in Trances over even damage GCDs if recovery matters more.

I'm also not sure what the purpose of comparing Outburst to Shadowflare is when Outburst is purely a rebranded Tri-bind and serves an entirely different purpose.

[Shiroe]

Smn rotation has always been and will probably always remain the more difficult rotation compared to Blm..

BUT Blm has always been and will probably always remain the more difficult class to use in real endgame content..

Blm "slight" buff of ca. 3-5% and a very slight Smn nerf of 2-3.. or something in that range (imo Smn is doing a tick too much in 5.1 compared to all dps, while Blm is doing a tick too low compared to all)

or just buff Blm 5-7% and buff Rdm 3-5%

[Shiroe]

those were just some numbers, didnt do the deep math for them

[Madoka]

a 5% boost at 16000 is 800. Which just goes back to the 5.0 disparity for no reason.

[Akiudo]

a 5% boost at 16000 is 800. Which just goes back to the 5.0 disparity for no reason.

which would be even worse cause than the melees would rightfully cry they need a buff aswell

[remiff]

Smn rotation has always been and will probably always remain the more difficult rotation compared to Blm..

BUT Blm has always been and will probably always remain the more difficult class to use in real endgame content..

Blm "slight" buff of ca. 3-5% and a very slight Smn nerf of 2-3.. or something in that range (imo Smn is doing a tick too much in 5.1 compared to all dps, while Blm is doing a tick too low compared to all)

or just buff Blm 5-7% and buff Rdm 3-5%

Are you crazy, add 5-7% firepower to blm
would be a throwback to the 5.0 caster meta,
the blm does not need a buff if they reduce the summoner's damage, it would only neccesary to buff the red mage and the blm if the Summoner does not change.
But even in this case the blm does not deserve 5%
3% in the best case .

[Shiroe]

looking at hades ec average blm dps, 5% is about 530.., about that much is Smn ahead..

I didnt put much effort in the numbers, but blm average is too low to all dps atm, just nerfing Smn is imo not the solution