My god, Square *head in hands* - RE: monk

[ValStormbreaker]

Why not use that opportunity to fix anatman and turn it into something MNK could use to effectively manage GL stacks during downtime or during their opener? Or even better...use it to streamline the tornado kick rotation that was popular at the end of stormblood and finally give a little twist to MNK's unchanging rotation? Because right now, MNK really feels like ARR MNK with some minor QoL changes (form shift making GL management non-existent).

Actually, the double TK rotation was technically still possible, though it required a GCD speed of 1.86 OR 1.84. It just didn't work at 1.85 because of some weird GCD clipping which would occur due to TK's 10-second recast time, which could easily be fixed by reducing it to 5 seconds. Damage-wise, it was viable for clearing content, but under-performed compared to other openers because of how weak Tornado Kick is and there being little incentive to drop stacks compared to just using Six-Sided Star for disengaging from the spread mechanics SHB introduced for most of its fights around 20 seconds into an encounter, which always shaves an RoF window a bit short and interrupts openers at around the same GCD. If it weren't for those (which I really wish they'd stop doing for future encounter designs), you'd be able to use both a Six-Sided Star AND TK, but either way, TK would need a significant buff and its recast time reduced. That, and Anatman needs to have its recast reduced to 30 seconds, whereby if it gave a GL stack instantly, it could be used during the second TK's recovery rotation to quickly get back up to 4 GL stacks, rather than just up to 3 and then having to wait 3 GCDs to get back to 4.

It's funny you say this, because a big problem I have with a lot of the SHB changes in general (across a variety of jobs) is it feels like they wanted to cater to all the ARR and early HW MNK players who just can't come to terms with the fact that a level 80 job should feel like a level 80 job, and it's not ARR or HW anymore. So, lots of these jobs had their weaving removed. MNK lost a good chunk of oGCDs, and other jobs had stuff put onto the GCD that was previously off of it. It has made the jobs feel more boring across the board, and lowers the skill ceiling rather than lowering the skill floor, in the name of accessibility, which is never a good way to balance these sorts of things.

I'm a bigger fan of using Skill Speed to balance things, but because right now SkS reduces damage output, it isn't viable to do so. I think for players who want to go faster (like me) and find the GCD speed of 1.86-1.84 to reduce much of MNK's current clumsiness (fun fact), and have the pings to handle it, we should be allowed to increase the speed without having to worry about damage reduction. I feel like increasing SkS and SpS past threshold which reduces the GCD speed should grant bonus potency to compensate for the loss of damage-dealing stats. I feel like this would allow for a greater variety of gameplay as well, without punishing players. Those of us who put more effort into executing our rotations should be out-performing slower ones, instead of the speed substat taking away from power. This can also be a way for players who don't like to double-weave to still be viable, without having to remove oGCDs to make a portion of the player base happy at the expense of everyone else's satisfaction.

[ValStormbreaker]

No it wouldn't. If they gave it a instant tick, players would wait for the second tick instead. That's how strong it is.

They should probably just change it to a gcd button on a 10 second cooldown that grants a stack/refreshes the timer. That would at least remove waiting for a server tick and the reliance on timers.

No, I'm very against this idea. I hate how everyone wants everything put onto the GCD. MNK was fun because of its weaving which gave it a good sense of rhythm and flow. Putting all these things onto the GCD interrupts the flow of gameplay and these sorts of interruptions were exactly the kind of issue SAM mains had with Shoha. It wasn't good for them, and it certainly wouldn't be good for us. We've lost enough oGCDs as is.

What they really ought to do is this:

Make Anatman an oGCD and not give any GL stacks for 5 seconds. However, if a move which would normally give you a GL stack (i.e. Demolish, Snap Punch or Rockbreaker) interrupts/breaks Anatman, it gives an extra stack.

The opener would then start as Shoulder Tackle > Anatman > Demolish and then continue as per usual. This basically makes Demolish give 2 stacks of GL instead of 1. Anatman itself would just freeze the GL duration and the form timer, and 5 seconds is more than enough time for most of the phase changes we've seen. That, and if Anatman's recast time is reduced to 30 seconds, it would actually become viable for quicker TK recovery windows.

I'm also a fan of the idea of tweaking Brotherhood by removing the stacking Meditative Brotherhood nobody uses because PF is so averse to duplicates, and just doubling the effect to 60%. This actually gives more Forbidden Chakras to use for weaving during burst windows and almost, ALMOST makes up for the lack of oGCDs we have. I did this for a bit with friends back when everyone was doing Titania Ex, stacking our Brotherhood windows, and it works surprisingly well by giving a Forbidden Chakra almost every second for the duration of Brotherhood. Sure, you only get +5% damage since the main effect doesn't stack, but a 370-potency attack spammable almost every second is nothing worth turning a nose up at. Having more weaving makes MNK more fun to play, so it's a win-win for everyone if we just had more of them, especially because if casters are in the party the MB effect doesn't work as it's physical damage only.

[ValStormbreaker]

When said optimization involves running third-party software that was actively used to try to blacklist members of the community, and the monk community decided that this was an acceptable state of affairs, then the level of surprise in the community should be a non-positive number.

Like, let's not sugar-coated, this is the shit that actually happened and monks should not be surprised at the inevitable result.

Thank you. Lots of replies to you adamantly insist this isn't the case, but it seems they need a reality check because you ABSOLUTELY have the right of it. It really does feel like putting Anatman on the GCD is an anti-automation method meant to inhibit the use of the automated and unnaturally fast Dragon Kick after the Anatman by way of a third-party software. This would in turn allow for SE to have cleaner telemetry data to weigh written feedback against, which is what they require for whether or not they choose to implement changes recommended by the community. They need to see the data of what players are actually doing, and the more players pollute this data through unnatural, unethical and dishonest gameplay, the harder it is for them to discern where and how adjustments need to be made.

I know "not everybody" uses third-party softwares like this, but never underestimate the volume of raiders who endorse cheating and do use these things. MNK's population is much smaller than most of the other DPSes, so it takes fewer bad apples to sour the data at everybody else's expense.

I WILL, however, say I'm pleasantly surprised to see this over the alternative, which would have been a job-wide nerfing, at the expense of those of us who use alternative and more natural openers at higher speeds. This at least buys SE some time to implement fixes come 5.2, once they have cleaner data to work with. It would certainly be nice, however, if the XIV community learned the virtue of personal accountability over parroting rhetoric from Reddit and Discord.

[ValStormbreaker]

Honestly they should get a new team to work on monk because of the 4 melee he is the one with the worse kit, sam, ninja and dragoon are all better and more fun jobs to play. We lack a proper rotation and we lack a skill to disengage, STOP GIVING US DAMAGE AND FIX OUR PROBLEMS!! Listen to the people that play and raid with monk, we are not happy with our job.

sam, ninja and dragoon are all better and more fun jobs to play. We lack a proper rotation... Listen to the people that play and raid with monk...

The thing is, there was a very big difference between how SAM, NIN and SMN players were complaining about their jobs' issues, and how MNK players were. SAM and NIN players especially understood how the job was meant to be played, and were identifying problems with it. There was no overt encouragement from the SAM and NIN mentors on the Balance to use an opener mathed out in a vacuum before SHB ever released, coupled with advertisements to use third-party software in part developed and/or distributed by them, and no attempt at a workaround of the limitations of the job to exploit it for higher-than-intended damage numbers while declaring that this is THE SHB opener without consideration to alternatives. To top that off, there was also no shifting the blame to SE and adamantly declaring that this is how they'd continue to play until and unless SE fixes it. The majority of the SAM and NIN players were on the same page regarding the job, and played it honourably, which provided SE with enough clean telemetry data so they could get their changes sooner. The majority of MNK's smaller population did not take this approach, and those of us who did are fewer and farther between. This is why we didn't get significant changes or reworks along with the other DPSes.

The top raiders are all using third-party tools to do these things, which I find disgusting and these people should have been banned long ago for violating the ToS. Their continued participation in the raid scene while using third-party cheating tools is partly responsible for the current state of the jobs' adjustments or lack thereof. They can whine all they want, but so long as they keep polluting the telemetry data SE needs to weigh written feedback against, we'll never get the adjustments we need. I'd say, listen to the people who are not world-first raid groups, and instead the people playing honestly who are openly and adamantly against the abuse of these jobs using third-party tools.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, the double TK rotation was technically still possible, though it required a GCD speed of 1.86 OR 1.84.

I can testify to this. Worked fine for me (a SkS-addict) so long as I wasn't lagging much. Each PB allow me to TK, return a stack, PB, return 2 more stacks, fill a global, TK, regenerate 2 stacks again (yes, there are 6 GCDs per PB when not running slow-Monk), and then RoW for the last one. I'd then TK again 30 seconds later, and then twice again 30 seconds after that. The only complication came from RoF timing, which required that I click RoF off one GCD early (at that speed, though, this still allowed for two Demos and a TK in window each time, as PB wasn't yet devoted to DK-LFB spam nor its frequency halved).

It mostly just made me really wish that (1) TK's cooldown would scale with Attack Speed (snapshotted at activation, not after use, ofc), (2) Riddle of Wind a 0-potency skill (and Wind Tackle given its initial potency) available from FoW for 10 seconds after the use of any Tackle, or (3) Wind Tackle gave the full potency and the GL stack instead, as not to require a triple weave.

[ValStormbreaker]

I can testify to this. Worked fine for me (a SkS-addict)...

The way I did mine, after your first TK recovery got you back to 3 stacks of GL in Fists of Fire, due to the TK recast time, you had enough time to slide in a Bootshine (which was a Leaden Fist one since you had the Leaden Fist buff from the Dragon Kick prior that had gone unused) and then quickly hit the second TK. You could get back up to 2 out of your 3 stacks of GL before PB ran out, and then it was back to the vanilla rotation of Dragon Kick>Twin Snakes> Demolish (for the third GL stack), and then [Leaden Fist] Bootshine > True Strike > (swap back to Fists of Wind) Snap Punch for the fourth one. No triple-weave necessary in my version of the opener, and it goes silky smooth, too! ♥ Because of the way 5.0-5.08 MNK was designed, much of the skill bloat in the two recovery rotations from SB MNK's double-TK opener was removed, and making it lots straightforward to pull off the recoveries.

It's important to note that while many players are now advocating that PB get the Ten-Chi-Jin treatment and give a flat 6 GCDs, I'm very against this because if you crank the speed up high enough (1.86 at minimum) and are skilled enough (the entire point behind high-level MNK play), you can actually fit 7 GCDs in the PB window, and that smooths lots out. It's a lot less tight on the timing the faster you go, with 1.84 being the magic GCD speed for pretty much removing about... 90% of the issues people currently have with MNK's jankiness since it allows for all the things people don't like to be done a little differently and much smoother and more naturally instead. I feel it should be on the burden of the player's manual dexterity to accomplish greater feats, without the hand-holding of something like what Ten-Chi-Jin now does for NINs.

The one and only issue I had with the timing here was that due to Tornado Kick's 10-second recast timer, if you had a server tick or a bit of lag, or if you were at a GCD of 1.85, there'd be an awkward pause that would throw you out of alignment while you had to wait for TK to come back off cooldown, and this would result in GCD clipping and possibly a loss of one of your snap punch recoveries.

Now... if the recast timer were reduced to 6 or even 5 seconds, it would be a non-issue, and it would be a much friendlier thing to pull off at an entire range of GCD speeds below 1.90. In fact, if Anatman gave a stack of GL right away, and its recast time were 30 seconds, then it could be used to get back up to 3 stacks of Fists of Fire right after PB ran out, and then Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish would get you back up to 4 sooner. For players who are not at a skill speed of 1.86 or higher, be it due to ping issues or even personal comfort, they can use that Anatman a GCD earlier and adjust accordingly, doing something to a similar effect that would be friendlier on their pings and at a skill speed more comfortable for them.

[ValStormbreaker]

The problems with this opener are primarily three-fold. First is the GCD clipping which is easily rectified, and second is that TK needs at least +100 potency (arguably even more) for the dropping of the stacks to be viable. This is also just a boost in numbers and is therefore as easy as altering the recast time. Super simple, can be done within the hour. The real problem is that SHB loves its new encounter design philosophy, which is to shove some kind of obnoxious spread mechanic 20 seconds into the encounter which results in an uptime loss and cuts into the RoF/Brotherhood windows, which at a GCD speed of 1.86 would happen right after the second Dragon Kick, and at 1.84 would be right after the Twin Snakes. This happens in 3 out of the 4 Savage fights, both Extreme fights (though it's random in Innocence Ex), and in Akademia Anyder with the first boss using Tidal Guillotine, all at around the same GCD. In all cases, you'd use a SSS to disengage (it's not useless like everyone seems to claim), but because you have to reapply your DoT soon as you re-engage, it kind of defeats the point of using TK then so it becomes a "why bother" situation. If bosses stopped doing this, TK would be used DURING the SSS slowdown, just before the GCD came back up, leaving enough time for a Forbidden Chakra.

But what nobody on the Balance will tell you is that MNK performs most naturally, and eerily lines up with most of the boss mechanics in the game with an uncanny degree of accuracy, when at a GCD speed of 1.84, or at the least 1.86 (SkS north of 2k).

I still think SkS increases need to give a potency buff since otherwise there's little incentive to go faster other than you can. The effort required isn't rewarding without a boost in power to accompany the speed. I believe this is the secret to balancing other jobs, too, like SAM, and even the casters. Instead of buffing action potency numbers, let them receive a potency bonus for each 0.01 that gets knocked off of the GCD speed. If jobs play more naturally when they're pushed to greater speeds, and if you can do fancier things with them as well, then that style of gameplay also places greater burdens on the players to perform. For me, this is why I became a MNK main in Stormblood, since I live and breathe the Daigo Parry and come from the Fighting Game Community, and so I craved a very hands-on, actively-engaging job like how MNK was. If MNK still has the same skills it has right now, but could be pushed faster and feel rewarding for doing so, it would allow for accessibility at the lower levels of gameplay while rewarding those who push themselves to perform, without punishing anybody. The skill ceiling becomes as high as players are willing to push themselves, not forcibly lowered and shackling players who want more out of the job to cater to those players who don't like weaving and/or don't have the ping for more impressive gameplay. Nobody has to be short-changed if only speed came with power, instead of being at the expense of it.

[Shurrikhan]

But what nobody on the Balance will tell you is that MNK performs most naturally, and eerily lines up with most of the boss mechanics in the game with an uncanny degree of accuracy, when at a GCD speed of 1.84, or at the least 1.86 (SkS north of 2k).

@7 GCD PB and the fixed 10s TK CD.
I could only get that work under Arrow or WTFast/Exitlag and SkS food, but yeah I've gotten that a fair few times as well. It's pretty great. As for the TK timing issue, I just had to delay its reuse a GCD; I tried everything I could to still get my full PB use without delaying TK, but nothing else worked for me, and so I just realigned things slightly some 30s prior so I could at least get a good DK in there and a Demo-drop (DK falling before Demo and its own reapp only) later.

@Balance ignoring SkS breakpoints.
Sad, but I have to figure -- why would they? It takes only some 3.8k stat for Crit (decreased with Direct Hit) to outperform SkS even on the lowest oGCD-based-damage job, SAM. We have higher %oGCD damage and an even stronger crit proc than we had before while getting less Crit benefit out of Bootshine now that double-Boot is dead. There's just virtually no way for SkS, a near-linear stat affecting only the majority of damage, to win out again one with so much sharper a curve and an effect on all damage.

...Which is why I've been pushing for SkS rebalancing since ARR (through oGCD damage bonuses or Haste and overclocking, and scaled animation locks or general netcode improvements), but alas.

[IruruCece]

Blatant 'job had it coming' BS here

Anatman was a bad tool from day one, and players were recognizing this as soon as we were able to really get around to using it. Math showed that using it in the opener, even without the tool, WAS better than other openers, and depending on your luck/the ticks, could be FAR better than the alternatives. When I got around to learning how to use it, even without the use of the tool (which I have never installed, speaking personally), I could tell my own performance was beating the pants of Monks who weren't using it in their opener. And I'm hardly the best there is at this job. And the sad thing is, even after this patch, Anatman openers are still better, though the gap, once again proven by actual math, has closed considerably.

The community for every DPS naturally gravitates towards what works best, because every player who actually gives a shit wants to contribute as much as they can to their group. If SE wanted Monk, hell, ANY DPS, to actually develop different playstyles that accommodate different combinations of weaponskills and job skills to be used in many different ways, they'd have made a completely different game from the one we have today, where so much of EVERY DPS is centered around very specific rotations by design. There is little variation with how monks play because to eschew what works well in order to claw for some magical ideal where we can play how we 'want' is why we have a Tornado Kick guide on the forums right now that basically contorts itself to fit in a skill that itself is one of many problems the job currently faces.

If SE wants to "fix" the job and make us more "flexible," in your words, well, when they actually get around to making an attempt it might very be the first time they've made the effort. Until then, we still have our rotations, we still have Tornado Kick sucking incredibly bad, we still have far too many ways to both maintain GL AND ignore positionals, and we still sit in the same goddamn Fist for 99 percent of a fight like we have since forever.

[Oxdarock]

snip

While it's interesting to see other people use TK in their rotation, as someone who obsessed over it for months and wrote a guide on how to use it mid-rotation in ShB, I can say that you really don't want to use PB for it. the LF Boot spam PB lets you do is a mini-burst phase in an of itself. You also don't want to dump so much sks into your build that you get lower than 1.9sec GCD at GL4, since you're most likely losing a lot of crit and/or direct hit at that point, which are far better stats in terms of damage. Only time you want to put more into sks via things like melds is if it allows you to break the 6 GCD in PB threshold (it's still better than Det as a third priority stat imo though). As far as where you can use TK, the only place you can really do so now is at the end of a RoF window, which is similar to how you used it in SB as you want it to hit as hard as possible.

While people used third-party programs to use the Anatman opener (and for PB windows), prior to 5.1 you could still reliably use it even without said program simply be having 6SS proceed it. You'd get a stack of GL almost every time (on rare occasions you'd either clip for a fraction of a second to gain a stack or gain two stacks). What's really ironic though is that the same third party program now works better with the TK opener (and TK bursts) than the Anatman opener as you have more leeway to use it when you need to.

Honestly, if SE had Anatman give an instant GL stack and keep the server tick gain (or at the very least keep it from clipping GCDs), it'd be fine whether it's a GCD or oGCD (though honestly, I'd prefer the latter).