How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Aurelius2625]

It's outrageous that a healer, who contributes the most to a raid already through healing, does the SAME damage as a tank. That's unacceptable. The only reason tanks are brought is because they are forced to through the encounter. If people could bring three healers and one tank, they would. Healers should be below tanks, tanks should be below dps.

[Reynhart]

It's outrageous that a healer, who contributes the most to a raid already through healing, does the SAME damage as a tank.

It's outrageous that a tank, who contributes the most to a raid already through not being one shotted, does the SAME damage as a healer.

The only reason tanks are brought is because they are forced to through the encounter.

The only reason you brought a healer is because the games forces it if you want to survive.

[Aurelius2625]

Tanks have FAR less contribution to the raid now that enmity is a joke, there's little interactivity through mitigation tools. Just to stop busters, which are far too infrequent that I can legitimately use some to stand close during Crumbling down to chad a little bit. Levi? Again the busters are invuln'd and cooldowns are super frequently wasted. Same thing with E1 and E2.

You can meme all you want, Reyn, but you can't deny that healing buttons go less used... SCH's use excog, lustrate, deploy, WHM's use afflatus skills, Tetra, Bene, AST does w/e it does... tanks have LESS to do in raid than Healers do, for their given role, therefore, Tank dps should be higher, because they ALL of their GCDs to dps, and almost all of their oGCDs to dps... healers do NOT use most of their ogcd's on dps, they use them for healing.

[Aurelius2625]

Yeah, just checked... 1 kill on Eden Prime and you really know your stuff about tanking huh guy? Really? You know so much about doing damage as a tank? Okay... LOL yeah...I've seen all that I need.

Seems that low dps individuals are totally okay with being at where they are, because they have no clue about what they are talking about.

When I am at the peak of performance, 99th percentile, and a healer is RIGHT behind me, that's a problem. The dps players would throw a FIT if a tank was, at the 99th percentile, right behind them, when they too...were at the 99th percentile..

a 99th percentile WHM or SCH is pretty close in rdps to a 99th percentile WAR or DRK.

Imagine if you will, if it was the tanks at the 99th percentile that were literally right behind Dancer and pre steroid buff NIN in dps, when the NIN and DNC were also 99th percentile doing as much as they can possibly do?

They would RIOT over it, because they would feel as though their contribution wasn't as necessary, since you'd just be able to bring two more tanks instead of a dnc and nin. That's how the tanks feel right now. We dedicated almost all of our actions to damage and STILL come up short when both the healer and tank are at peak performance. That should NOT be happening, since healers spend far more ogcds if not nearly all of them, on healing and buffing of some sort. Same with GCD healing. This would be okay, if mitigation were GCD or some weird active mitigation that lowered dps for mitigation, and if mitigation actually MATTERED in this game (Spoilers, it doesn't you spend just about the same amount of healing regardless of what you do, as long as you survive because you either invuln heavy hits that would require healing anyway, or mitigate...the healer spends the same amount of resources unless it's hallowed).

Again, low effort, low dps tanks commenting when they don't know any better. Anyways...I'm out. It's just going to be one of "those conversations"

[TheForce]

Yeah, just checked... 1 kill on Eden Prime and you really know your stuff about tanking huh guy? Really? You know so much about doing damage as a tank? Okay... LOL yeah...I've seen all that I need.

Seems that low dps individuals are totally okay with being at where they are, because they have no clue about what they are talking about.

When I am at the peak of performance, 99th percentile, and a healer is RIGHT behind me, that's a problem. The dps players would throw a FIT if a tank was, at the 99th percentile, right behind them, when they too...were at the 99th percentile..

a 99th percentile WHM or SCH is pretty close in rdps to a 99th percentile WAR or DRK.

Imagine if you will, if it was the tanks at the 99th percentile that were literally right behind Dancer and pre steroid buff NIN in dps, when the NIN and DNC were also 99th percentile doing as much as they can possibly do?

They would RIOT over it, because they would feel as though their contribution wasn't as necessary, since you'd just be able to bring two more tanks instead of a dnc and nin. That's how the tanks feel right now. We dedicated almost all of our actions to damage and STILL come up short when both the healer and tank are at peak performance. That should NOT be happening, since healers spend far more ogcds if not nearly all of them, on healing and buffing of some sort. Same with GCD healing. This would be okay, if mitigation were GCD or some weird active mitigation that lowered dps for mitigation, and if mitigation actually MATTERED in this game (Spoilers, it doesn't you spend just about the same amount of healing regardless of what you do, as long as you survive because you either invuln heavy hits that would require healing anyway, or mitigate...the healer spends the same amount of resources unless it's hallowed).

Again, low effort, low dps tanks commenting when they don't know any better. Anyways...I'm out. It's just going to be one of "those conversations"

You are very toxic, I actually kind of feel bad for you. I hope you fix that one day.

[ForteNightshade]

It's outrageous that a tank, who contributes the most to a raid already through not being one shotted, does the SAME damage as a healer.

The only reason you brought a healer is because the games forces it if you want to survive.

Tanks are essentially buffier DPS, and have been for a while now. This sounds more than a little silly when White Mage achieves the same damage spamming Glare and refreshing Dia everything 30 seconds while tanks have to maintain an actual rotation.

[Kabooa]

Tanks are essentially buffier DPS, and have been for a while now. This sounds more than a little silly when White Mage achieves the same damage spamming Glare and refreshing Dia everything 30 seconds while tanks have to maintain an actual rotation.

Dia refreshing alone has more moving parts to it than most of the tank 'rotation'.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanks are essentially buffier DPS, and have been for a while now. This sounds more than a little silly when White Mage achieves the same damage spamming Glare and refreshing Dia everything 30 seconds while tanks have to maintain an actual rotation.

The mere fact that tanks' rotations are something unalterable, i.e. to be merely "maintained", indicates that there may well more complexity in the healers' offensive actions than the tanks'. Apart from DRK (via TBN DA banking for raid buffs), I can't think of a single tank that has to consider damage taken or party actions in any way that would change its behavior.

And let's remember how much "buffier" they are. They mitigate just over half of all damage dealt to them when you take the multiplicative effects of Defense, Trait, and their defensive skills. (Defense and Trait alone compound to around 46% mitigation, while defensive skills tend to be used where the most damage is inflicted, thus skewing the contribution of their heightened % mitigation to an even effect overall.) They remove the need for more healing than they could actually ever even receive from a healer.

[Reynhart]

Tanks have FAR less contribution to the raid

They have the exact same contribution as the healers "If you don't have one, you wipe". In fact, they currently seem to have more, since you can already clear some savage floors with one less heal in your party (And, logically, a solo healer is rock bottom on DPS). I haven't seen yet any solo tank video.

tanks have LESS to do in raid than Healers do, for their given role, therefore, Tank dps should be higher, because they ALL of their GCDs to dps, and almost all of their oGCDs to dps... healers do NOT use most of their ogcd's on dps, they use them for healing.

We already covered this. For a healer, using a GCD to DPS is using one less GCD to heal. Tanks do not have to make that kind of decision. We as a community are the ones that asked for that to be removed alongside the tank stance.

And, again, if healers can ignore their GCD and heal only with their oGCD, then the content is not tuned properly. So, the solution is not to increase tank's damage, but to put more pressure on healing, that will automatically reduce healer's opportunity to DPS.

[Nedkel]

Yeah, just checked... 1 kill on Eden Prime and you really know your stuff about tanking huh guy? Really? You know so much about doing damage as a tank? Okay... LOL yeah...I've seen all that I need.

Seems that low dps individuals are totally okay with being at where they are, because they have no clue about what they are talking about.

When I am at the peak of performance, 99th percentile, and a healer is RIGHT behind me, that's a problem. The dps players would throw a FIT if a tank was, at the 99th percentile, right behind them, when they too...were at the 99th percentile..

a 99th percentile WHM or SCH is pretty close in rdps to a 99th percentile WAR or DRK.

Imagine if you will, if it was the tanks at the 99th percentile that were literally right behind Dancer and pre steroid buff NIN in dps, when the NIN and DNC were also 99th percentile doing as much as they can possibly do?

They would RIOT over it, because they would feel as though their contribution wasn't as necessary, since you'd just be able to bring two more tanks instead of a dnc and nin. That's how the tanks feel right now. We dedicated almost all of our actions to damage and STILL come up short when both the healer and tank are at peak performance. That should NOT be happening, since healers spend far more ogcds if not nearly all of them, on healing and buffing of some sort. Same with GCD healing. This would be okay, if mitigation were GCD or some weird active mitigation that lowered dps for mitigation, and if mitigation actually MATTERED in this game (Spoilers, it doesn't you spend just about the same amount of healing regardless of what you do, as long as you survive because you either invuln heavy hits that would require healing anyway, or mitigate...the healer spends the same amount of resources unless it's hallowed).

Again, low effort, low dps tanks commenting when they don't know any better. Anyways...I'm out. It's just going to be one of "those conversations"

This right here is someone who is right.

I remember when main director said he want healers to heal more.
It turned out their DPS numbers got buffed and tanks got nerfed making them equal, what a ironic game we are playing.