No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

[Curisu]

Bad troll attempt.

When I don't do big pulls, I die because I fell asleep.

[Mahoukenshi]

Ignoring the usual of people throwing sh!t at each other: Does anyone know if it has always been normal that mobs in dungeons turn invincible and (try to) return to their starting position - like in open world - after they got dragged a certain distance by wall-to-wall/large pulls? I noticed it a couple of times in lower-ARR dungeons since 5.1, but can't remember it in HW dungeons when other tanks did it.

[Lambdafish]

Unless you are a healer, the tank pulling lots has no effect on you. If you are healer and it's overworking you beyond your ability then I do understand. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because you don't seem to understand tanking in dungeons, but I hope you listen and get a new perspective.

Big pulls aren't about speed (though that is a factor), big pulls are about engagement and challenge. Pulling one pack at a time is boring, you end up pushing one or two buttons over and over, with no need to mitigate or dodge or interact with the game system at all. Big pulls require more attention, with mitigation, healer awareness (verbal or otherwise), and dodging having far higher risk, and rewarding you with faster clears, it overall makes the hyper-casual braindead experience into something that tests your skills as a tank.

So I'll summarise with the abridged version: Tanks big pull not because they are impatient, but to increase dungeon difficulty to a more engaging level for their role.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you. I too have run thousands of dungeons, and I have been in instances where the tank has pulled far too many enemies at once, and the healer cannot keep up with the demands to keep the tank on his/her feet. Therefore, the risk of a wipe is very real and they are NOT safe.

Was this tank mitigating? I don't think Tint is saying that there is no risk of wipe, but that big pulls are comfortably possible if the tank knows what they are doing. There is risk of wiping in small pulls if the healer is AFK, and the level of engagement required simply goes up the bigger a pull, but never to an unmanageable level.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

IT'S NOT A RACE, PEOPLE!!! When you do a dungeon, you are committed to it for 90 minutes.

15 min for most dungeons and 20 ish for the new ... there are outliners.

I would NEVER commit 90 min for a dungeon. Thats the server time it gives you before it swipes you out the door so you dont clog the server.

The 90 min have NOTHING to do with how long content should take ir what a person should set aside for. A guildhest takes a single minute at time but will give you what .... 30/60 min?

Large pulls of atleast 2 packs become the norm after 50, you dont have to follow it but ppl will raise questions. You should however not start a "no more" and expect massive support.

Noone force you into a playstyle. In all cases of my healer saying small pulls please ill adjust but ill not enter a dungeon and do that by default. I have all tanks and all heals at 80 ... its fine.

Single pulls require neither a good heal or tank while big pulls require both a good tank and heal.

No its not a race but optimization is something a lot of ppl do. If i can run a dungeon in 10 or 20 min there is a clear choice and yes these gaps are real.

Especially at low lv dungeons are very forgiving and heals cant aoe. This however should not be forced on a new player by any means.

You can pull the entire first section of sastasha in 2 pulls, skip clams and park the second pull on the boss ... should you? Prolly not point is saving time is a thing.

If you run all roulettes the difference could be 30 min a day which for many is worth a lot.

Tl:dr dont force sprouts into big pulls below 50, but keep in mind saving time is important for many players.

[Vidu]

When playing a healer I get extremly bored by single pulls - dpsing as healer isnt exactly fun atm, given the limited skill pool they have for that and mobs deal so little damage that you hardly need to heal a tank through only one group (provided the tank isnt undergeared and hits a cooldown once in a while). It only gets intresting when you try to balance dpsing aswell as healing through actual noticeable incoming damage.

While playing a dps I feel terribly uneffective during single pulls: I know that AoEing isnt really worth it with only 2-3 mobs, but single target just "feels" wrong. So I rather have 4+ mobs and the clear "go ahead" for my AoEs.

While playing a tank I feel I'm holding my group back by only doing single pulls (even more so because in 90% of cases I'm running dungeons with my partner, in a paladin/BLM-combo, so plenty of AoE there). I'm also bored by them and feel ineffective, since I know that 98% of groups are absolutly capable of handling them. On top of that: Only big pulls make me feel that I actually need to use my cooldowns, pay attention etc. They actually require me to dip into my full toolkit, stun the odd mob here and there, dodge AoEs... a single group, even if standing in every single AoE will never be a serious threat.

...and while its not a race, its often a dungeon you're seeing multiple times a week - expert roulette says Hello! If an expert roulette with its current payout would take 90 instead of the 15-20 minutes, I'd find a new source for my tomes. 90 minutes is the absolute maximum the game allows you to spend in that dungeon - doesnt mean you need to reach that.
I get that large pulls can be uncomfortable while learning and leveling, but there is an easy solution for that: Communicate with your party upfront that you're new to the dungeon/job and would prefer to take it slow. And maybe try the off "big" pull here and there. I remember how nervous I was during my first large pulls in WP and how I refused to do them at first - I didnt trust my own skill, I didnt trust my pocket healer to keep me alive. But after a while we tried, we managed and we got a better understanding of our toolkits in the process. Unless you're content with only ever pressing 1-2-3 large pulls are far more intresting and give way more opportunity to every job to really use every skill they have. I prefer that over only ever spamming my single target rotation and so seem most people I met. The only times I've ever seen people not being comfortable with big pulls were during leveling dungeons, and thats completly fine and no one pushed them to try them there.

Go ahead... reach endgame and then come back and tell us that you want to spend 90 minutes each day in an expert roulette...

[Fhaerron]

I guess we're playing a different kind of game.

Latest example would be the newest expert dungeon, Cosmos.
Generally I would always pop sprint right before first pack of mobs so I have 20s duration and then just keep running trough (use AoE's to generate emnity on the pack as I run trough). In Cosmos I would keep running untill I'm blocked off by a closed door or gate where the mobs needs to be killed before you proceed (usually around 2-3 packs that is).

For an extra challenge I did not use Rampart or Sentinel (Shadow wall on my DRK).
I only used Reprisal, Arm's Length (best CD for dungeons imo) & Sheltron (Blackest Night on my DRK), Divine Veil & Dark Missionary (to mitigate party wide damage on bosses).
Did several runs on both these 2 jobs and always with pug healers (also had at least 1 off the three healer jobs), not a single wipe, not even on the first time I was there, altough the first time I messed up my sprint timings a few times because I did not know the layout yet and where mobs would spawn.

Expert (dailies) is the main way I use to cap tomes, I've been caping my tomes every week since the second week of ShB and I can count on one hand the times we had a wipe, also 90% of the times I went in alone and get DF pugs.

Seeing as the majority of DF groups do speed pulls I suggest you either 'learn' how to speed pull or you make your own pre-formed group with your own terms and then go in a dungeon and you can take your 90 mins run.

[Lambdafish]

Seeing as the majority of DF groups do speed pulls I suggest you either 'learn' how to speed pull or you make your own pre-formed group with your own terms and then go in a dungeon and you can take your 90 mins run.

Alternatively, they can level a tank and control the pace of the run themselves

[TheMightyMollusk]

Does anyone know if it has always been normal that mobs in dungeons turn invincible and (try to) return to their starting position - like in open world - after they got dragged a certain distance by wall-to-wall/large pulls? I noticed it a couple of times in lower-ARR dungeons since 5.1, but can't remember it in HW dungeons when other tanks did it.

The only dungeons I remember this happening in are the Sunken Temple of Qarn (the giant heads will leash back to their starting point, since they don't stay dead anywhere else; many won't notice, since most of them have to be killed to proceed with the dungeon anyway) and Copperbell Mines (the one instance where almost everything is leashed, for some reason).

[Aurida]

I think it happens very rarely in some super low level ARR dungeons? The majority of mobs after the first door in Copperbell Mines leash, as do the two flames and the contents of the side rooms after the second boss, but it doesn't come up much.

[NekoNova]

I'll be upfront, I like these topics for the popcorn discussions.


I think that if the party is okay with doing big pulls, they should be done/possible for the party.

On the other hand, if someone is not comfortable with doing the big pulls, then they shouldn't be happening.
The key here : communication.


My personal opinion : I dislike the big pulls depending on the class I am playing. There's moment I enjoy nuking down entire packs with the AoE my class gives me, but there's days I simply don't feel like rushing through a dungeon and just want to take it easy.