Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Lastelli]

why compare 5.0 with 5.1?

5.0 is over, everthing that matters is 5.1..

Because BLM wasn't nerfed in 5.1, was it. Therefore old data matters when it comes to assessing BLM potential.

What if a good chunk of the old top BLM simply decided to try SMN after the buffs? This would result in an average decrease of BLM damage at all percentiles. In fact, since 5.1, the relative representation for SMN substantially increased on fflogs (the sample for SMN has now more observations than the sample for BLM, while before 5.1 the opposite was true).

In short, not considering BLM numbers before 5.1 is a mistake and may lead to wrong conclusions.
What we know now is that 5.0 BLM = 5.1 BLM > 5.1 SMN at higher percentiles with the exception of E1S. This is what the data currently tells us.

Of course, it might be that top SMNs still need to adjust to the new changes and future logs will show that a fully optimized SMN is stronger than a fully optimized BLM, but we don't have that kind of data yet.

[Shiroe]

ofc many moved to Smn..

but ofc its less likely the top blm dps moved over, since they had great dps eitherway, but more likely those who were struggling with maintaining blm dps move over (or Smn mains fed up with Smn 5.0 moved over)

ofc many will try out the new Smn too, those who do more Dps will stick to Smn

still, its obvious that Smn is very strong, probably too strong for a rez class with buffs overall, when looking at Blm (and Rdm)

[Shiroe]

but im not sure that nerfing Smn is the way to go, since Smn is not as OP as 4.1 Smn was

[Akiudo]

With the new ranged buffs, ranged won't be pushed out, but they are still really bad. The double BLM comp theorycrafted needed 2 BLMs performing at 95%+ to get a very minor increase, iirc from the original thread it was 0.5% over taking a top performing ranged, and wasn't a gain if you could get another LB2 out of a normal comp (due to reduced lb generation from double class). The new ranged buff and no nerf to BLM means that that 0.5% will likely not happen anymore. Ranged still need a buff though imo.

problem is that you now don't need double blm anymore, blm+smn will do the trick, also for the cases where its about that 0,5% or even less dps, thats speedrunning, a miniscule amount of the playerbase even if people like to act like thats all that matters, for everyone else however ranged still suck, especially as summoner offers a rez.

it isn't even the question if its better to take a equally skilled ranged instead of a second caster for dps, as long as the dps numbers are as they are a caster may very well fill the second ranged slot instead of a physical ranged with minimal loss (or even small gain) to the group which means the ranged are in fact at risk of losing their slot to a caster and thats a problem, not because i'm against taking the player instead of the class or whatever, but as a matter of fact square encourages you to take at least 1, rather 2 melee dps aswell as 1 caster. if now on top of that the last slot is "should go to ranged, but seriously if you got another good caster just take that one" we got

4 classes competing for 2 slots (melee)
3 classes competing for 1 slot (caster)
and then 3 classes (physical) competing for the last slot with 3 other classes (caster) again.

a static may very well take a second caster instead of a physical ranged and at worst have minor dps loses in exchange for a rezz, and while generally i would say its a good thing if classes competed freely for slots that would mean all would have to compete, as it stands the only classes with extra competition are the physical ranged, fighting for a single slot whereas everyone else gets a slot save and officially encouraged by square by way of the 1% buff.

[ShaneDawn]

Because BLM wasn't nerfed in 5.1, was it. Therefore old data matters when it comes to assessing BLM potential.

You make a fair point, in that presenting logs from 5.1 are probably not an accurate representation of what the jobs are capable of doing.

Doing a comparison of 5.0 to 5.1 parses is not going to be fair or accurate either, as the number of sent logs in the former is of a much higher volume right now, even over the 2 week data shown on the statistics. I doubt week 1 logs on a revamped job after a new patch hits are going to be an proper reflection of what the job can do, but this is just conjecture until we have more definite data.

The job is cutting it close either way, with the current caster balance effectively adding insult to the injury for Red Mage. It is also up to debate as to how close SMN, a caster with raise, heal utility (lol) and the improved mobility options should be able to do relatively to BLM in the first place.

I submit to the fact that my previous post might have been too monotone in regards to BLM/SMN rDPS differentials and requiring a better set of data to work with, however. I'm not really prone to denying when I might have presented an inaccurate perspective.

[lulunami]

4 classes competing for 2 slots (melee)
3 classes competing for 1 slot (caster)
and then 3 classes (physical) competing for the last slot with 3 other classes (caster) again.

a static may very well take a second caster instead of a physical ranged and at worst have minor dps loses in exchange for a rezz, and while generally i would say its a good thing if classes competed freely for slots that would mean all would have to compete, as it stands the only classes with extra competition are the physical ranged, fighting for a single slot whereas everyone else gets a slot save and officially encouraged by square by way of the 1% buff.

Why not pick this comp?
- Black Mage
- Summoner
- Any Ranger
- Any Melee

[Erudito]

My take on the new summoner: does a lot, like always, and hits hard which I like.

However, it has become the most blocky and otherwise counter intuitive job on the entire roster. It used to be my main but having little to no OGCDs to weave makes it bad for me.

At this point I would rather have more hard-cast abilities instead of all these instant-cast GCDs that make the job cumbersome.

[Akiudo]

Why not pick this comp?
- Black Mage
- Summoner
- Any Ranger
- Any Melee

because the weakest melee completly smokes the strongest physical in dps ? leaving out e1s because of add padding mch is the only ranged with any shot at being wortwhile, and even than its only very very barely because of the 1% buff, mch is the strongest phys ranged by 200-700 dps compared to bard/dnc depending on fight and you don't even need any "uptime strats" or whatever as the moment you take the first melee you will do that either way.

for numbers sake, right at this very moment, 95% percentile for 1 day (feel free to check tomorrow, the general picture has been the same for every day since patch hit)

e2s=bard 14.072
weakest melee (nin)=15.479
1407 dps buffer from bard to weakest melee

e3s=bard 13.167
weakest melee (drg)=14.708
1541 dps buffer

e4s=bard 13.193
weakest melee (nin)=14.469
1276 dps buffer

now a 95% group which means only 1 out of twenty groups is better, does 85000-93000 dps on these fights if you exclude the limit break meaning the 1% ranged buff gives anywhere from 850-930 dps, thats why you don't exclude the melee, because you could literally take the weakest melee and still be 400 dps ahead compared to taking a bard, dnc on average fairs a bit better, but excluding levi where bard is a bit of an outlier do to his group buff being outranged like 30% of the fight dnc still is only like 50-100 dps ahead of bard or in other words, still 300-400 dps short AFTER the 1% buff is accounted for, the only phys ranged with a chance to break even is mch, and even that is barely.

Also the question of "but what if you instead excluded the melee" still acts as if melees having to compete for a second spot is anywhere close to as bad as physical ranged actually having to compete for any spot at all. saying things like "the physical buffs saved them from exclusion" ignores that literally everyone aside from the strongest 2 of 5.0 got buffed by the same or more dps than the physical ranged

[Aomine1992]

So I don’t have an issue per say with SMN but honestly the problem here in lies with BLM, it was just way too strong and they tried to compensate for that and the other half of the issue is RDM it’s just too damn weak. SMN being in the middle we keep getting this ping pong situation, this is why utility should have just been given to all dps.

Now we have the BLM becoming the SAM of the casters while RDM is still dragging the way back. SMN should have been on par with DRG but behind MNK allowing some middle ground but whatever I’m sick of it lol their balance issues reach further then a few classes but the whole dps role in general.

[wereotter]

So I don’t have an issue per say with SMN but honestly the problem here in lies with BLM, it was just way too strong and they tried to compensate for that and the other half of the issue is RDM it’s just too damn weak. SMN being in the middle we keep getting this ping pong situation, this is why utility should have just been given to all dps.

Now we have the BLM becoming the SAM of the casters while RDM is still dragging the way back. SMN should have been on par with DRG but behind MNK allowing some middle ground but whatever I’m sick of it lol their balance issues reach further then a few classes but the whole dps role in general.

Summoner and Red Mage provide a comprable amount of utility, and so should be near each other in damage.

Everlasting Flight is the summoner equivalent to Vercure. It can't be used whenever you need it, but it is a passive part of your rotation and is a party-wide regen. Summoner is the only DPS with this ability.

Resurrection is the equivalent of Verraise. While you can't dual cast it whenever its needed, rarely should a raid need the summoner to raise multiple people back to back.

Devotion is the equivalent of Embolden. It's on a longer cooldown, but it boosts all magic damage as well as physical, making it potentially a stronger party buff.

Also now with the changes to Egi Assault, summoner has the potential to be much more mobile than red mage. I bring this up since in Heavensward, summoner mobility was used as a reason that black mage was supposed to do more damage as black mage was more or less completely immobile.

All that said, the developers really just need to figure out how they want casters in general to stack up against other roles, and commit to it. Previously it was the idea that if a caster didn't have to move, they should do more damage than a melee job, but now they don't seem to be abiding by that idea. They also over-tax some of the utility skills. Dragoon has a lot of utility, yet still gets to do high damage while jobs like red mage also have high utility and historically have done very low damage. Hopefully this balance is figures out sooner than later, like you said.