Are the bard 'buffs' a Halloween prank?

[Saefinn]

I don't understand the fetish for "support" dps. DPS is dps. Either more of your damage is from rdps or more from adps, that's fine.

We don't need to waffle about on the "1% can be X" or "it has 100% uptime". It does not have 100% uptime. Anytime the group spreads it is not 100% uptime.

And with 100% uptime, you can easily see that the avg raid dps is like 80-90k. Which means we don't need to guess at the damage increase, it is literally 800rdps or so at the top end.

Contrast with DNC's roughly 1500rdps, and you can see where their numbers need to be to make up the difference.

I suppose you don't have to get it. A case of to each their own.

With regards to the disparity between DNC and BRD rDPS contributions, the consideration needed is how much more personal DPS BRD does than DNC. Somebody mentioned BRD was doing just under 12.5k, a friend checked whilst I was talking DNC DPS yesterday and told me average is looking 11.5k at the moment. If these numbers are fair/accurate for personal DPS then BRD has 1k up on DNC, if taking into consideration your numbers then this adds up.

I'll probably check myself later to give myself a fair comparison, but as I say, if it turns out BRD is in a worse place rDPS wise, then I definitely see room for adjustment.

[MPNZ]

With the current criteria of balancing and design: it's definitely better than the super nerf dnc had to have good rdps, and it's actually fits into it's lore in the least interesting way possible for players with more dynamic, bombastic, or depth laden design preferences who would prefer more a more complete, non-zombie-boring toolkit earlier over losing lots of depth and decision making every patch and expansion

[Shurrikhan]

Still very concerned about the nerfs to the DOT damage and why of all things they thought that bringing back the passive songs is what Bard players wanted. We wanted more active support, not passive support.

That might take supporting one's party though. We want to be support, not do support things. /s

[Akiudo]

1% -sounds- tiny.
But BRD will -constantly- have a DPS buff up. The only other job with a constant up time of a buff like this is DNC and theirs is only for 1 person, which is 5%. And then 5% on themselves, but we can count that as part of DNC's personal DPS.
Sure DNC gets a bit more thanks to Technical Finish too, but their personal DPS is also lower than a BRD as BRD is sitting in between MCH and DNC in the balance of personal DPS and support DPS. So it makes a little more sense here.

That 1% can turn in 8% in an 8 man (or 7% if we count BRD's buff as part of their personal DPS) and 4% in a 4 man (or 3% if yada yada) but is only 1% solo. Tank DPS and healer DPS will be lower, but it all adds up. So in this respect it adds a little more than Standard Finish to the overall party DPS if 8 man, but less if a 4 man.

The problem is, they have to be careful with BRD balance, because it doesn't need high DPS & still have utility, because it'd step on MCH's toes again. And it doesn't need too much utility to avoid one-upping DNC because their DPS is higher. Sure if they nerf BRD's DPS more in favour of stronger buffs, DNC can be the one in the middle, but people will be unhappy that BRD personal DPS is too low. As I understand it, there's 2 schools of thought when it comes to BRD, those who favour it as a bow DPS hitting stuff and those who favour it as a support DPS class. So IMO it kinda makes sense to sit in the middle. With MCH leaning more towards selfish DPS and DNC leaning more towards support DPS in terms of balance.

However, the return of the buffs has re-interested me in levelling BRD more, because I like the idea of support DPS. And actually I feel the job still plays well and flows really nice IMO.

If BRD end up finding themselves in a bad place on the rDPS table, then I definitely see argument for adjustment. However, I'd argue that the buffs contribute more than they sound just be looking at the description.

it isn't an 8% buff and never was.
a 1% raid buff is just that, a 1% raid buff, it could be an 8% personal buff yes, but first the bard does NOT buff itself, it just doesn't happen.
secondly your 2 tanks+2heals will at best do 2/3 of a dps jobs dps , thats for record time speed run settings, in every other case the heals/tanks will average out at about 1/2 a dps each assuming a group of equal skill players so you buff 3 dps+4"half dps"

for you as a dps player buffing the group by 1% each is more like a 5-5,5% personal gain , oh and also the range on the buff is really big yes, but not THAT BIG , on things like split on levy, delta cross in e1 or teutonic uplifts in e4 if you got the blue marker you can feel comfort in the fact that you will only reach half the group if you are lucky, the buffs in fact contribute less than you would think just by looking at the description and bard has been last place in every current fight since the patch hit with redmage being anywhere from 500-1200 dps above bard while offering a rezz (mind you redmage is in a totally fine position damage wise, just gets overshadowed by summoner) and the weakest melee being ahead by another 100-200 dps

[ForteNightshade]

If the current statistics hold up, the DoT nerf definitely needs to be retracted. Bard is pulling lower rDPS than Dancer, which makes it borderline useless given how much above it Machinist is now. A bit ironic since Yoshida said if Bards wanted more utility, their damage would need to around Dancer. Apparently, he missed the memo where it's already below it.

I don't understand the fetish for "support" dps. DPS is dps. Either more of your damage is from rdps or more from adps, that's fine.

Some players prefer their damage coming from a supportive nature than a purely selfish one. It's a playstyle preference and little else. Granted, plenty of Bards also want things like Refresh back.

[pandabearcat]

What I'm saying is there is no playstyle difference. Your rotation is exactly the same as before.

If they -were- to give actual support skills, I would support it.

But as it stands it was a straight up nerf (relatively) to the other dps.

[Mordraug]

The DoT nerf was certainly uncalled for >_<

[Saefinn]

it isn't an 8% buff and never was.
a 1% raid buff is just that, a 1% raid buff, it could be an 8% personal buff yes, but first the bard does NOT buff itself, it just doesn't happen.
secondly your 2 tanks+2heals will at best do 2/3 of a dps jobs dps , thats for record time speed run settings, in every other case the heals/tanks will average out at about 1/2 a dps each assuming a group of equal skill players so you buff 3 dps+4"half dps"

It is a 1% raid buff, yes, but if trying to compare with the closest thing another job has, then you break it down. Like DNC's 5% buff from Standard Finish is an individual buff and not a raid buff, but it is sustained, however, I think it is the closest comparison we can make. Even then, there's still differences to consider. But this is the closest comparison because 1% sounds insiginificant and unimportant, but it still helps and its effectiveness of course is greater in a full party.

And with the drop with tanks/heals, I /already/ acknowledged this in my post, I just didn't adjustm the 7% based on it, because I thought it was implied that it'd not be the same as 7% on an average DPS, however, I agree with your assesment of 5% because average tank DPS is about 7.5k and average healer DPS is about 5k, 2 healers and 2 tanks would be enough DPS for 2 DPS jobs, which'd make the 5% equivalent of putting a Standard Finish on a single person. In effect then, it's BRD getting its own version of Standard Finish except it's spread between the raid members on and to an individual and is weaker in a 4 man situation.

Whilst I'd be happier if BRD did get a bigger buff, if pandabearcat's figures are representative of the rDPS gain on a BRD versus a DNC then I think for balance's sake it's more or less in the right place.

Now that I have a chance to better look at figures for the last week as far as balance goes:
Eden Prime Savage: DNC has 200 rDPS over BRD
Voidwalker Savage: BRD has just under 100 rDPS over DNC
Leviathan Savage: DNC has ~200 rDPS over BRD
Titan Savage: BRD has ~50 rDPS over DNC
Overall Ex fights (Titania, Innocence and Hades): BRD has over 300 rDPS over DNC

Though maybe 1 week's worth of data when patch has just released is premature, but the best we have at the moment.

So I'm not really sure how much buffing BRD needs to its support side without putting DNC at a disadvantage, because they currently (and only by a week's statistics) are overlapping each other depending on the fight. I think if we were to buff BRD's buffs more then their personal DPS will need to go down or DNC will need to be buffed with them. The latter might be more preferable, of course.

[Akiudo]

Now that I have a chance to better look at figures for the last week as far as balance goes:
Eden Prime Savage: DNC has 200 rDPS over BRD
Voidwalker Savage: BRD has just under 100 rDPS over DNC
Leviathan Savage: DNC has ~200 rDPS over BRD
Titan Savage: BRD has ~50 rDPS over DNC
Overall Ex fights (Titania, Innocence and Hades): BRD has over 300 rDPS over DNC

Though maybe 1 week's worth of data when patch has just released is premature, but the best we have at the moment.

So I'm not really sure how much buffing BRD needs to its support side without putting DNC at a disadvantage, because they currently (and only by a week's statistics) are overlapping each other depending on the fight. I think if we were to buff BRD's buffs more then their personal DPS will need to go down or DNC will need to be buffed with them. The latter might be more preferable, of course.

problem with a week of data is that that means half the time measured is pre patch, since the patch dropped at 95 percentile dancer beat out bard on every single fight (i checked the data for the day every single day around the same time), also and thats something that gets completly ignored at this point is that both deal shit damage, its not even "oh no, brd now is weaker than dancer" or whatever, its "bard and dancer literally both deal shitty damage" , even mch damage is pretty sucky , just not nearly as bad as the other two.

Also its not only brd vs dancer, no matter how often some people like to act like obviously casters or melees would never take a spot from a phys ranged aways, right now i clear eden through party finder, and as often as people repeat the whole "party finder is all meta comps searching...." in reality you more often than not end up in a group with 2 casters/1 physical or even 2 physical ranged, just that i can tell from experience that the 2 physical ranged group will have a way harder time with enrage than a group that takes 2 casters and a physical

[Saefinn]

problem with a week of data is that that means half the time measured is pre patch, since the patch dropped at 95 percentile dancer beat out bard on every single fight (i checked the data for the day every single day around the same time), also and thats something that gets completly ignored at this point is that both deal shit damage, its not even "oh no, brd now is weaker than dancer" or whatever, its "bard and dancer literally both deal shitty damage" , even mch damage is pretty sucky , just not nearly as bad as the other two.

Also its not only brd vs dancer, no matter how often some people like to act like obviously casters or melees would never take a spot from a phys ranged aways, right now i clear eden through party finder, and as often as people repeat the whole "party finder is all meta comps searching...." in reality you more often than not end up in a group with 2 casters/1 physical or even 2 physical ranged, just that i can tell from experience that the 2 physical ranged group will have a way harder time with enrage than a group that takes 2 casters and a physical

I did BRD versus DNC just because of the support DPS aspect, as BRD IMO should have high personal DPS than DNC but less contribution to rDPS than DNC. However, compared to other DPS, I agree, as you say, they're behind where they should be and need a boost.

I love my DNC and I loved BRD in SB and am working on levelling it so that I have both, even if I put myself at a disadvantage balancewise.