Well, they actually did it, the absolute madmen

[Alynn]

Wow. This is still going. People who are arguing about this affecting overall skill levels: you are not the stewards of good gameplay. The game's job is not to teach people how to play it but to be playable. Period. If you're so concerned about player aptitude then find someone who sucks and mentore them. Or give advice. Instead of vote kicking and rage quitting and snarling over solo content tiers. So many of you are scared of the game being 'easier' because of the overall badness of the player base but have no interest in actually putting work in to change that. Instead you expect the game to do it--which it is. By lowering the bar.

See how that works?

Advice is only helpful when people want to take it. The game shouldn't have to lower the bar because it does a fairly good job of teaching people IF THEY WANT to learn/take it in. It's 2k19 and people are still running away from stack markers, eating aoes, not aoeing (even at level 80 lmao) during big pulls, people being freeze mages, tanks using cd's when they're ABOUT TO DIE instead of before, healers using aoe healing when the tank is about to eat a TB. Interesting how it works right?

[Maeka]

Advice is only helpful when people want to take it. The game shouldn't have to lower the bar because it does a fairly good job of teaching people IF THEY WANT to learn/take it in. It's 2k19 and people are still running away from stack markers, eating aoes, not aoeing (even at level 80 lmao) during big pulls, people being freeze mages, tanks using cd's when they're ABOUT TO DIE instead of before, healers using aoe healing when the tank is about to eat a TB. Interesting how it works right?

To be fair, a lot of these things result from what the playerbase wants, rather than what the game was designed for.

It was the playerbase who deemed it was "better" to pull humongous groups, and to AoE everything down because it is "faster". But yet was this actually SE's intention? Not really, I mean, look at the Trusts. They don't AoE either. To be honest, I think they added the ability to multi-pull in dungeons as a sort of "You can if you want to" but the playerbase turned it into a requirement because everybody is in such a fricken hurry all the time, to the point that if you get a non-synch'd tank and healer who decide to pull single groups, you'll get DPS who grumble and even occasionally drop group just because the tank and healer aren't geared well enough to handle multipulling.

Like it or not, the game was designed to be accessible and laid-back at its core. There's savage raiding and extreme/ultimate modes, but the hardcores begged for this kind of content, I don't think this was something that Yoshi-P was really wanting to do with the game IMO.

[Callinon]

To be fair, a lot of these things result from what the playerbase wants, rather than what the game was designed for.

It was the playerbase who deemed it was "better" to pull humongous groups, and to AoE everything down because it is "faster". But yet was this actually SE's intention? Not really, I mean, look at the Trusts. They don't AoE either. To be honest, I think they added the ability to multi-pull in dungeons as a sort of "You can if you want to" but the playerbase turned it into a requirement because everybody is in such a fricken hurry all the time, to the point that if you get a non-synch'd tank and healer who decide to pull single groups, you'll get DPS who grumble and even occasionally drop group just because the tank and healer aren't geared well enough to handle multipulling.

Like it or not, the game was designed to be accessible and laid-back at its core. There's savage raiding and extreme/ultimate modes, but the hardcores begged for this kind of content, I don't think this was something that Yoshi-P was really wanting to do with the game IMO.

Trusts aren't a great example here since their stated design has them performing straight up worse than normal players. They're not some kind of design ideal, they're bots that do dungeons with you.

Also the "playerbase who deemed it was better to pull humongous groups" isn't the playerbase making that decision, math did that. It's faster. That's indisputable. If SE wanted to stop that behavior they easily could, so it clearly doesn't conflict with their design too much.

[Maeka]

Also the "playerbase who deemed it was better to pull humongous groups" isn't the playerbase making that decision, math did that. It's faster. That's indisputable. If SE wanted to stop that behavior they easily could, so it clearly doesn't conflict with their design too much.

I never said otherwise?

However, SE (and the Japanese in general) were never obsessed with getting things done as quickly as possible. They're laid-back as a culture, and just because you CAN do something faster, doesn't mean you SHOULD always every time. The older Japanese, dunno about the younger ones, but the older ones usually believe in a "No Rush, take your time" type approach to things. Get things done methodical and thorough instead of rushing through it as fast as you can.

Being impatient is very much a Western thing. In fact, I had an interesting conversation the other night with a person who has friends on Japanese servers and they said that their servers are far less toxic when it comes to this kind of thing, that some English players are actually deciding to move over there just to get away from the toxicity that is starting to creep up over here.

[SummonerSenah]

What makes you think the people against this change and the people that drop their ilvl for easy alliance roulette are the same people?

I'm fine with this change but this line of reasoning always baffles me. When people say 'The same people that want X also hypocritically like Y' as if the playerbase is some sort of monolith with one set of opinions. Or that everyone that shares one oppinion probably shares another.

I'm not assuming that they are the same people, hence asking "how many of you" rather than making a sweeping generalization that all of them do that. But I'm sure there is at least some overlap.

[Callinon]

I never said otherwise?

However, SE (and the Japanese in general) were never obsessed with getting things done as quickly as possible. They're laid-back as a culture, and just because you CAN do something faster, doesn't mean you SHOULD always every time. The older Japanese, dunno about the younger ones, but the older ones usually believe in a "No Rush, take your time" type approach to things. Get things done methodical and thorough instead of rushing through it as fast as you can.

Being impatient is very much a Western thing. In fact, I had an interesting conversation the other night with a person who has friends on Japanese servers and they said that their servers are far less toxic when it comes to this kind of thing, that some English players are actually deciding to move over there just to get away from the toxicity that is starting to creep up over here.

It's not really a laid-back attitude or anything like that. They think of their gaming differently than we do, but they still aim for high efficiency in what they're doing.

Let me tell you a story from FFXI.

Back in caveman times when the only way to level up was to grind hundreds of mobs for hours on end, there was a game called Final Fantasy XI that was shared between Japanese and English speaking players. There were no regional servers, everyone played together. The auto-translate language was a language in and of itself.

As an American player, I spent most of my time in English-speaking parties. We'd flag up in a town or whereever.. someone would send a tell (or not.. leveling DRK sucked), you'd accept the invite and when everyone was assembled you'd decide on a camp and head out. You'd get there, pick a spot, eat some food, and do a little grinding. Maybe someone would go AFK for a few minutes, maybe someone's goldfish would start drowning.. who knows. It was a wild and crazy time. Eventually you'd break up having gotten a level or two (maybe) and go start the process over.

But there were other times when I'd get an invite from a Japanese player. Let me tell you that was a whole different ball of cats.

The tell would include the camp we were going to (the leader had already scouted it out), how long the party would stay together, which subjob was being requested, and how many other party members had joined thus far. I'd accept the party invite, we'd head to the camp, and it's like waving the green flag at Daytona.. off they'd go. Maybe some chatting, but absolutely no AFK breaks, minimal downtime (healers and casters were expected to regen MP between spellcasts), continuous pulling. Time would be up, we'd all say our goodbyes, and that'd be it.

The key difference is respect for other people's time. Convey information -> Go do thing as efficiently as possible -> Repeat.

The difference between an NA party and a JP party in that game was night and day. You felt REALLY good about yourself if you got repeat invites from a JP party leader because it meant you were on your shit and they noticed.

To draw parallels here with wall-to-wall pulling. It's just doing the dungeon as efficiently as possible. All the trash has to die no matter what else is going on... so it's better to fight it all at once then it is to fight it pack by pack one mob at a time.

Respect for other people's time.

[Zarabeth]

I think my only complaint about this is that it doesn't offer hard and very hard for those who like a challenge. As to people using the easier choices, so what? These people were never going to do the savage content anyway.

[CazzT]

I think my only complaint about this is that it doesn't offer hard and very hard for those who like a challenge. As to people using the easier choices, so what? These people were never going to do the savage content anyway.

The issue is not about the people choosing very easy trying to join in savage content. The issue is those people participating in regular content and dragging down the rest of the group due to not having the basics down.

[DinahDemiurge]

It's not really a laid-back attitude or anything like that. They think of their gaming differently than we do, but they still aim for high efficiency in what they're doing.

Let me tell you a story from FFXI.

snip

YES!. Man that's one thing that really irks me about A LOT of FFXIV players. They don't respect time. They AFK, expect a carry, don't throw in dps during downtime(lazy healer syndrome), and my favorite way people waste my time...they join farm parties and leave after one kill. People are very inconsiderate in FFXIV.

[Callinon]

YES!. Man that's one thing that really irks me about A LOT of FFXIV players. They don't respect time. They AFK, expect a carry, don't throw in dps during downtime(lazy healer syndrome), and my favorite way people waste my time...they join farm parties and leave after one kill. People are very inconsiderate in FFXIV.

Sadly it's not unique to FFXIV. Internet culture in general has moved toward an FYGM mentality.