Dancer Flourish is badly designed and not actually enjoyable to use

[Rockette]

I like Flourish, it's a fun skill. Nothing wrong with it.

[Taranok]

I like Flourish, it's a fun skill. Nothing wrong with it.

There's plenty wrong with it, but complexity of usage isn't exactly what's wrong with it.

It's more that Dancer's overall activity level is very uneven, between lows that are very....simple...and highs that are incredibly complex (Flourish being the prime offender)

The issue being that it kind of overloads a bunch of things all at once. If it were reduced in how much it gave or spread out over other parts of the rotation, it wouldn't be as jarring an experience, but as it is it's a lot of information overload all at once.

That one ability massively alters the texture of the class in a way most classes don't suffer from to quite as large a degree (some being affected more, such as SMN/BLM) and all it takes is 1 ability. Hagakure was actually in the same spot in SB where that one ability massively ratcheted up the difficulty of the job by simply being introduced.

I'd expect something will be done with it, just not necessarily this expansion since, while complicated and throwing the difficulty of the class up quite a lot, it's not exactly bad gameplay, just jarring.

[Rai_Takara]

There's plenty wrong with it, but complexity of usage isn't exactly what's wrong with it.

It's more that Dancer's overall activity level is very uneven, between lows that are very....simple...and highs that are incredibly complex (Flourish being the prime offender)

The issue being that it kind of overloads a bunch of things all at once. If it were reduced in how much it gave or spread out over other parts of the rotation, it wouldn't be as jarring an experience, but as it is it's a lot of information overload all at once.

That one ability massively alters the texture of the class in a way most classes don't suffer from to quite as large a degree (some being affected more, such as SMN/BLM) and all it takes is 1 ability. Hagakure was actually in the same spot in SB where that one ability massively ratcheted up the difficulty of the job by simply being introduced.

I'd expect something will be done with it, just not necessarily this expansion since, while complicated and throwing the difficulty of the class up quite a lot, it's not exactly bad gameplay, just jarring.

Flourish isn't even complex...

There's a priority system with dancer and as long as you know which moves do the most damage, you're set. Funnily enough, most people consider dancer one of the easier jobs to pickup and play. At the high end, there might be more intricacies involves to squeeze as much damage as possible, just as other jobs do (though RNG makes it harder). The only changes to be seen is what others mentioned, giving you more to do between flourishes instead of being at the mercy of RNG.

[Rockette]

It doesn't overload at all. Even within all those procs there is still a set priority to follow. It's simplistic.

[Kahnom]

If you think DNC is overwhelmed then it means you need more practice or this job is not for you.
Personally, I think DNC ain't busy enough.All I need is one DOT skill but that's just me.

[HyoMinPark]

There's plenty wrong with it, but complexity of usage isn't exactly what's wrong with it.

It's more that Dancer's overall activity level is very uneven, between lows that are very....simple...and highs that are incredibly complex (Flourish being the prime offender)

The issue being that it kind of overloads a bunch of things all at once. If it were reduced in how much it gave or spread out over other parts of the rotation, it wouldn't be as jarring an experience, but as it is it's a lot of information overload all at once.

That one ability massively alters the texture of the class in a way most classes don't suffer from to quite as large a degree (some being affected more, such as SMN/BLM) and all it takes is 1 ability. Hagakure was actually in the same spot in SB where that one ability massively ratcheted up the difficulty of the job by simply being introduced.

I'd expect something will be done with it, just not necessarily this expansion since, while complicated and throwing the difficulty of the class up quite a lot, it's not exactly bad gameplay, just jarring.

Flourish isn’t a complex skill to use or optimize. All it does is force your Flourished procs—so long as you understand the priority system surrounding them (i.e., which ones are higher in potency, and which ones should be prioritized during any buff windows that may line up with your Flourish [e.g., Trick Attack] to maximize damage), there is very little “difficulty” or “complexity” involved at all. It’s just reacting to your buttons lighting up, and trying not to overwrite any existing procs prior to using...which is not much different from RDM management of Verstone/Verfire procs.

I strongly disagree that Flourish is the “main offender” of DNC’s high and low periods of activity—if anything, I’d place the “blame “on Saber Dance and the RNG surrounding Esprit generation during Technical Finish windows: you can have crap RNG where you seemingly gain very little Esprit from your party members, or you can have astounding RNG where Esprit is coming in so fast, you get multiple Saber Dances within a single 20-second window. And this isn’t even comparing a highly-skilled group to a lower-skilled group—even the same group of individuals (i.e., your static) can give you both crap Esprit generation and astonishing Esprit generation. It’s far more unpredictable compared to Flourish, which will always give you the same procs upon usage at the same points in your rotation.

Flourish is just reacting to procs that you force at a set interval within your rotation (as opposed to reacting to procs given to you by RNGesus whenever he so deigns to bestow them upon you), so I don’t understand your statement that it “ratcheted up the difficulty” of the job or your apparent comparison to the original Hagakure in Stormblood. It’s not that complex, and I’d say it doesn’t really jump the difficulty of the job at all—just the activity between Flourish casts for a handful of GCDs.

[Taranok]

Flourish isn't even complex...

There's a priority system with dancer and as long as you know which moves do the most damage, you're set. Funnily enough, most people consider dancer one of the easier jobs to pickup and play. At the high end, there might be more intricacies involves to squeeze as much damage as possible, just as other jobs do (though RNG makes it harder). The only changes to be seen is what others mentioned, giving you more to do between flourishes instead of being at the mercy of RNG.

It doesn't overload at all. Even within all those procs there is still a set priority to follow. It's simplistic.

SAM players said the same thing about Hagakure, and yet here we are. Just because you don't think it's complex or overloads players doesn't mean that it doesn't overload players or isn't complex. It's the functional equivalent of me, as a BLM main, claiming that Black Mage is the easiest class in the game just because I find it easy to optimize its rotation on fights, when that couldn't be further from the truth as it's one of the hardest classes to do well on and all objective measures prove the massive skill gap between a low-end player and a high-end one.

Yes, it's a complex ability. Yes, it overloads the rotation. But some players don't notice this, and they will enjoy the class because of this spike in complexity even though other players will be overloaded by it and the ability represents a major spike in difficulty for the class purely by itself.

That's not to say the class is the hardest in the game (it's not), and it's not to say that it's the most complex in the game (Debatable argument valid on literally every class depending on the person). It's just to say that this ability objectively spikes the difficulty of the rotation in a way that makes the class vastly more complex and difficult than it would be if this singular ability did not exist.

[HyoMinPark]

SAM players said the same thing about Hagakure, and yet here we are. Just because you don't think it's complex or overloads players doesn't mean that it doesn't overload players or isn't complex. It's the functional equivalent of me, as a BLM main, claiming that Black Mage is the easiest class in the game just because I find it easy to optimize its rotation on fights, when that couldn't be further from the truth as it's one of the hardest classes to do well on and all objective measures prove the massive skill gap between a low-end player and a high-end one.

Yes, it's a complex ability. Yes, it overloads the rotation. But some players don't notice this, and they will enjoy the class because of this spike in complexity even though other players will be overloaded by it and the ability represents a major spike in difficulty for the class purely by itself.

That's not to say the class is the hardest in the game (it's not), and it's not to say that it's the most complex in the game (Debatable argument valid on literally every class depending on the person). It's just to say that this ability objectively spikes the difficulty of the rotation in a way that makes the class vastly more complex and difficult than it would be if this singular ability did not exist.

The implications of this post is that some players find it complex, and that others do not find it complex. This suggests subjectivity, and that judgments of complexity rely heavily on specific player opinions. So how can you say that the skill is objectively complex when you’re also arguing that complexity is subjective?

[Taranok]

The implications of this post is that some players find it complex, and that others do not find it complex. This suggests subjectivity, and that judgments of complexity rely heavily on specific player opinions. So how can you say that the skill is objectively complex when you’re also arguing that complexity is subjective?

Not quite. Some players ignore complexity or are so good they basically don't even realize it's complex, whereas other players notice complexity and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Rarely, you will find a good player that will recognize a complex thing as being complex even if they personally find it simple, but that requires someone who is self-conscious about what you actually need to think about when interacting with the class and then further state why something is complicated.

For instance, Flourish is complicated because it has a ton of layers it throws at you, as you have several competing problems to solve.

• You are being given 4 GCD procs that all have a chance to proc oGCD procs, but don't want to override any GCD procs that currently exist if possible.
• At the same time, you want to build towards a set amount of flourish, somewhere around 2 or 3, to build towards your burst combo or, alternatively, are at that in your burst combo, so you need to be ready to start dumping these procs after Flourish is pressed without allowing it to overcap or....
• Additionally, you're given the final stage of your oGCD procs while also being put into a position where you will regularly be proccing more of this proc.
• And once you push this ability, you will be double weaving potentially for 4 straight GCDs, possibly more, possibly less, all dependent on luck, so you have to pay very, very close attention to all of your procs to handle all 3 of these layers until you work your way through all of them.
• You have to be in melee position to properly use some of these abilities, which both isn't how DNC is otherwise normally played for single target, and can make for some interesting encounters in certain parts of certain fights.

That is a lot to keep track of even if each individual item is simple, and it will cause a sense of information overload in players because it basically doesn't exist in the class, at all, until you actually get to 72. No other ability adds complexity like this. In fact, every other ability is a single or dual layer, but flourish is closer to 3 or 4 layers of interaction. Even Hagakure was only 2 or 3 layers of interaction. Layers: GCD procs check, oGCD 1 procs check, oGCD 2 procs check (admittedly this regularly shouldn't be a procs check, but it can be), cooldown, position. All of that while having to often double weave to handle how many procs the class is getting. Hagakure was cooldown, rage bar, sen bar. And that many interactions was enough to get Hagakure removed as part of the DPS rotation because it was bumping the difficulty of the class too much.

The class almost never has any level of busyness remotely close to the rotation immediately before and after using Flourish. It comes close, there are some abilities that have a couple layers, but Flourish is by far one of the most complex abilities in the game, outright, just on one of the simpler jobs.

That's also why I stated that something is probably going to be done, just like something was done with hagakure, but it doesn't represent an immediate problem right now and many players like the ability for its complexity, whether they recognize it as being complex or not. And I'd be quick to admit that, in the absence of Flourish, Dancer overall would be a bit too simple, so the class does need the complexity, just not necessarily that much all at once in a single ability.

[pandabearcat]

DNC at 70 is awful because it *doesn't* have flourish.

I'd push for flourish to be learned earlier if anything.

Literally the entire rotation is to plan around flourish. That is your one job. It's not so bad.

Technical just adds a priority to procs.