Forced scarcity and exclusivity.

[PyurBlue]

I don't really care for exclusivity. I don't find comparisons to reality relevant since in the real world we deal with limited resources while in game everyone could have everything if the devs wanted.

I feel like games should be designed around fun and I think it's best if players can experience the entirety of the game, if it interests them. Content should be its own reward, this makes the content itself more enjoyable because it's designed to be fun and it avoids enticing players who don't enjoy content to play said content. When people are drawn into something they don't enjoy they might try to change it at expense of people who do enjoy it.

In short playing for fun is fun while playing for rewards can potentially create problems and degrade quality.

[Arazehl]

I agree a game should be about fun, but it can't be all to a game there is. Some players like challenge and with that they want a reward worth the earning. They want to feel that thrill of victory they have struggle to earn. They want to have bragging rights and that's okay too.

Players who think they should have these same rewards with little to no effort put into earning them is laughable. People should respect and congratulate those that fought the good fight, even in this game. Leave the envy, and greed at home . I don't like it when rewards for hard fought battles show in little events because the devs are too lazy to design new rewards for an event. The rinse and reuse is most obvious in this game.

[Mistyregions]

I don't really care for exclusivity. I don't find comparisons to reality relevant since in the real world we deal with limited resources while in game everyone could have everything if the devs wanted.

I feel like games should be designed around fun and I think it's best if players can experience the entirety of the game, if it interests them. Content should be its own reward, this makes the content itself more enjoyable because it's designed to be fun and it avoids enticing players who don't enjoy content to play said content. When people are drawn into something they don't enjoy they might try to change it at expense of people who do enjoy it.

In short playing for fun is fun while playing for rewards can potentially create problems and degrade quality.

I agree with everything but the statement "resources are unlimited in game and the devs could have it if they wanted" because resources are limited. To create those resources cost money IRL, so they have to prioritize stuff and still balance high payoff rewards for dedicated people. Everyone forgets to implement something as simple as instanced housing could cost upwards of 100-200k to implement. That's a shit ton of money. InB4 they profited from SHB, yes they did, and that money gets diverted to diversify their product line, you cant perpetually invest in one product that's like business 101.

[PyurBlue]

I agree with everything but the statement "resources are unlimited in game and the devs could have it if they wanted" because resources are limited. To create those resources cost money IRL, so they have to prioritize stuff and still balance high payoff rewards for dedicated people. Everyone forgets to implement something as simple as instanced housing could cost upwards of 100-200k to implement. That's a shit ton of money. InB4 they profited from SHB, yes they did, and that money gets diverted to diversify their product line, you cant perpetually invest in one product that's like business 101.

The resources to create the game come from the real world and they are limited, but you can't run out of items in game. Things like releasing a specific item to only 100 players are developer decisions and I don't really like them. I see no value in having something that other people don't and if the major motivation to play the game is the rewards then quality might start to decline. Creating items that the majority can never have sounds closer to forced exclusivity than the housing issue. I guess housing could have been added to the game differently, but we're passed that point now.

[RoyalBeef]

I feel like games should be designed around fun and I think it's best if players can experience the entirety of the game, if it interests them. Content should be its own reward, this makes the content itself more enjoyable because it's designed to be fun and it avoids enticing players who don't enjoy content to play said content.

That's not how MMOs work. That's not how the human brain works. Gamblers wouldnt gamble just for the fun if there wasn't a chance to win a reward. And what locked content are you even talking about? Wanting to do E4S without having to clear E1S-E3S first?

[PyurBlue]

That's not how MMOs work. That's not how the human brain works. Gamblers wouldnt gamble just for the fun if there wasn't a chance to win a reward. And what locked content are you even talking about? Wanting to do E4S without having to clear E1S-E3S first?

I realize that many MMO's use rewards as an incentive to play. That's not what entices me to play them, and when they rely too heavily on that it hurts the game. Forced exclusivity is another layer of annoyance on top of that since it arbitrarily locks people out of content. In FF14 Eureka could be taken as an example of content overly focused on rewards, it offered many enticing things but I flat out ignored it because nothing there was interesting to do. On the other hand you can find me joining PF groups for no reason beyond liking whatever content they happen to be running. All that matters to me is how I can interact with other players and if the activities that the game revolves around are enjoyable.

I didn't mention locked content, what I was talking about was enticing players into doing something they dislike just because there is a reward at the end. I didn't like Eureka, and if I had to play it I would want it to be changed. This might not sit well with any players that did like it as it was.

[CookiesNCreams]

I realize that many MMO's use rewards as an incentive to play. That's not what entices me to play them, and when they rely too heavily on that it hurts the game. Forced exclusivity is another layer of annoyance on top of that since it arbitrarily locks people out of content.

I. Not just MMOs, but I’d say at least 96% of online games regardless of genre, give some sort of positive reinforcement that gives player multiple motivations to grind certain content, and gain access to certain items that are exclusive. And if they are event locked, it simply encourages players to be more active then.

II. How exactly does positive reinforcement hurt a game? Back in 2.x and 3.x when Square Enix didn’t cater to lazy audiences that wanted everything spoon fed, the game did just fine and sold well. If they stayed the way things were, their FFXIV servers would still remain up for years and years to come. So the unnecessary accessibility and easy-mode endgame content was absolutely not needed...maybe for newcomers getting to 1 - 70, but experienced players...70+....no.

III. Forced locked content is in literally any game you play. You mean to tell me you just refuse to play a game because it actually wants players to have goals to work towards? Come on. This underachieving mindset will really hurt FFXIV rather than the opposite, honestly. It already has people upset and speaking up about it. “Arbitrarily locking people out of content”...oh please. Then by that logic, they are arbitrarily keeping things easy and free.

IV. Also, you want Eureka changed because boo hoo, poor you can’t find it in you to do it? Im horrible at Eureka too, but I don’t whine to Square Enix’s FFXIV development sector to change every single little difficult thing I can’t do that others can do fine. And you know what? If I actually cared about Eureka/Raids, and practiced, I actually would be good at it, considering I did Sophia EX on release very well. What, if I trip on a rock, am I going to ask Yoshida to make the rock easier to step on?

[PyurBlue]

I. Not just MMOs, but I’d say at least 96% of online games regardless of genre, give some sort of positive reinforcement that gives player multiple motivations to grind certain content, and gain access to certain items that are exclusive. And if they are event locked, it simply encourages players to be more active then.

That rewards exist across genres doesn't really change anything. I don't consider rewards when deciding if a game is worth playing.

II. How exactly does positive reinforcement hurt a game? Back in 2.x and 3.x when Square Enix didn’t cater to lazy audiences that wanted everything spoon fed, the game did just fine and sold well. If they stayed the way things were, their FFXIV servers would still remain up for years and years to come. So the unnecessary accessibility and easy-mode endgame content was absolutely not needed...maybe for newcomers getting to 1 - 70, but experienced players...70+....no.

I gave an example already, you can end up with something like Eureka where there are desirable items locked behind a mind numbing experience*. When people have to put up with something miserable to get something out of it, that is flat out bad game design. The experience should always take priority over the reward in my mind, that is what gets me to play. Having rewards doesn't make the game bad by itself, I wouldn't be playing FF14 if that was the case. Things go wrong when the incentive to play content leans too much toward the reward at the expensive of gameplay.

*There is subjectivity on what is good or bad, so I can't state that Eureka was bad in absolute terms, but many players voiced disapproval with it.

III. Forced locked content is in literally any game you play. You mean to tell me you just refuse to play a game because it actually wants players to have goals to work towards? Come on. This underachieving mindset will really hurt FFXIV rather than the opposite, honestly. It already has people upset and speaking up about it. “Arbitrarily locking people out of content”...oh please. Then by that logic, they are arbitrarily keeping things easy and free.

Sandbox games don't typically have locked content, so it's not a component of every game. How common locked content is doesn't change the my reasoning either. I'd only refuse to play games that use rewards as their selling point or as motivation to slog through a mediocre experience. I'm obviously playing FF14 which has rewards, so their presence isn't going to make me leave.

Locking content has nothing to do with difficulty either. Ultimate drops aren't arbitrary locked, you can get them whenever and it's still the hardest content in the game. Seasonal events are time locked and exclusive (unless they go up for sale later), and they aren't exactly difficult to get. In fact one of the more challenging things in the seasonal events is the Costa Del Sol tower. The only thing that it needed to entice players was challenge. There was no reward for completing it, and I find that completely fine. It makes the challenge the entire point and it doesn't incentivize people to ask for the challenge to be removed because they don't enjoy it.

[Reynhart]

When people have to put up with something miserable to get something out of it, that is flat out bad game design.

I really doubt people really like doing the same dungeons a hundred times for tomestones. Yet, they do it, because it rewards the 2nd best gear in the game.

Exactly like several Eureka debate back then, if you remove rewards from content, they'll all be dead after the first clear.