One change for DRK: Darkside increases attack speed instead of damage

[Freyyy]

Dark Knight is Warrior with even less to do which is not a good thing.

How ? DRK is WAR but with an extra gauge (MP) to use and its "on-demand" mitigation requiring good use in order to not be a massive DPS loss (TBN). Just because it has one less combo finisher doesn't mean it has less things to do. Combos aren't the only interesting way to create rotations in a game. If anything, I actually think it just makes for more unnecessary skill bloat and elongated rotations (since you're using 3 different actions/GCDs for pretty much just one effect that might as well be one single action/GCD). Look at pretty much every other MMOs, combo skills don't exist, every skill is pretty much a stand alone ability with its own effect and CD/cost and rotations are created based on synergies between them and/or resource management/procs, etc... depending on the game. People really need to stop with combos. I agree that seeing the same Souleater anim. so much is boring and DRK needs a little more but it doesn't mean that the job automatically has less things to do. Look at MCH, it's a one combo job, yet people are calling it super busy and fun. Look at BRD, no combo at all. And they're physical DPS jobs.

WAR is the one with less things to do. You don't have MP to watch/use, you don't have to watch for your gauge when entering your IR phase because everything becomes free (unlike LS during Delirium), you don't have to worry about anything when using Raw Intuition or Nascent Flash, just press the button, you don't have half the oGCDs of a DRK, you don't even have to manage your Beast gauge as long as you're not being above 50 whenever you hit Infuriate. It's just spam Path and use FC, and just change the ender to refresh Eye once every 30s and use everything else pretty much on CD. How is that "more to do" than DRK ? People really need to stop spreading this garbage statement and start actually playing the jobs outside of Expert Roulettes.

[Reynhart]

you don't even have to manage your Beast gauge as long as you're not being above 50 whenever you hit Infuriate.

You don't have to watch your gauge as a DRK, just build 50, spend 50. You don't have any oGCD that could interfere with how you spend Blood. As for MP, in the end, it's used solely to maintain Darkside, so the only "management" to do is not overcapping.

Look at MCH, it's a one combo job, yet people are calling it super busy and fun. Look at BRD, no combo at all. And they're physical DPS jobs.

Yes, because those two have much more things to manage than DRK, with procs, skills that synergize with each other, building your gauge to your desired sweet spot and not simply to a specific value.

[shao32]

WAR have to keep a constant eye on infuriate to gain the most amount of time reduction for the skill, WAR have to focus on use his oGCD on inner release to maximum damage, WAR have to manage his gauge and avoid using infuriate under inner release bcs is a massive dps lose, WAR have to manage a lot of stuff and his mechanics at contrary to DRK ones have sinethy and you have to pay attention to many stuff, I don't say is hard bcd that's relative.
but ppl should stop saying DRK is more harder when you don't manage actually anything with the job, 1 mindless combo, 1 mindless spam window without worry about anything except land 5 bloodspillers, build MP and just throw it all on bloodweapon as avoiding overcap with is the most easy thing bcs you barely gain MP over the downtime.

Let's stop playing the card of my job is harder should be? All jobs are literally the same, WAR is just more boring (relative) not easy.

[Freyyy]

You don't have to watch your gauge as a DRK, just build 50, spend 50. You don't have any oGCD that could interfere with how you spend Blood. As for MP, in the end, it's used solely to maintain Darkside, so the only "management" to do is not overcapping.

Living Shadow ? oGCD, 50 Blood Cost. If you just build 50 and spend 50, you're gonna end up badly delaying LS, especially when it ligns up with Delirium which delays your Blood generation by 5 GCDs. It is more to do than WAR.

Yes, because those two have much more things to manage than DRK, with procs, skills that synergize with each other, building your gauge to your desired sweet spot and not simply to a specific value.

I never said the contrary. What even is your point there ? I took these examples to prove that having less combos doesn't mean a job is less busy or has less things to do. To prove that there are other ways to make jobs interesting and busy than just giving them extra combo finishers. It also doesn't contradict my point about WAR having less to do than DRK.

WAR have to keep a constant eye on infuriate to gain the most amount of time reduction for the skill

This was the case in SB but has been made completely trivial by the introduction of a charge system on Infuriate. You can let the CD slide and use it whenever you want as long as you don't wait after the 2 charges are up.

WAR have to focus on use his oGCD on inner release to maximum damage

Which is just using Upheaval on CD since it automatically ligns up. No thought process involved.

WAR have to manage his gauge and avoid using infuriate under inner release bcs is a massive dps lose

Again, completely trivial since Infuriate now has a charge, allowing you to delay its usage without any DPS loss.

WAR have to manage a lot of stuff and his mechanics at contrary to DRK ones have sinethy and you have to pay attention to many stuff, I don't say is hard bcd that's relative.
but ppl should stop saying DRK is more harder when you don't manage actually anything with the job, 1 mindless combo, 1 mindless spam window without worry about anything except land 5 bloodspillers, build MP and just throw it all on bloodweapon as avoiding overcap with is the most easy thing bcs you barely gain MP over the downtime.

I'm still waiting on the "lot of stuff and mechanics that WAR has to manage". Everything you said here can be done by just pressing buttons on CD with no thought process involved. And there you just listed things that DRK has to do and it's already more than what WAR has to do. You just contradicted yourself.

Again I'm not saying DRK is hard or complex. Tanks are all easy af this expac and DRK definitely could use some more little things to make it stand out more (especially when looking at Delirium and IR). But saying DRK is WAR with less things to do is beyond ignorance.

[Reynhart]

Living Shadow ? oGCD, 50 Blood Cost.

Yes, build 50, spend 50 on Living Shadow.

If you just build 50 and spend 50, you're gonna end up badly delaying LS, especially when it ligns up with Delirium which delays your Blood generation by 5 GCDs.

LS and Del lign up once every 6 minutes, and for every LS+Del, you have BW available to quickly rebuild any blood you need.

It is more to do than WAR.

WAR has to make sure to not use Inner Release at a bad moment, or he'll lose Storm's Eye, also to not use Infuriate during Inner Release, but to have it far enough in its CD so that it can recharge it without waste during the Fell Cleave spam, while still using Upheaval on CD, IR or not. Also Nascent Flash is better aligned with a burst window, so that your target can take full benefit from it.

I took these examples to prove that having less combos doesn't mean a job is less busy or has less things to do. To prove that there are other ways to make jobs interesting and busy than just giving them extra combo finishers.

But DRK isn't busy. On top of having only one combo, it doesn't have any actual management to do with its main damage buff nor its ressources, and no synergy between skills. And I was suggesting a new finisher because it's an easy "fix". But sure, you could give it another MP spender, so that you'd actually have to judge if you risk losing Darkside, or reducing either the MP gain or the duration, so that refreshing it too soon would be a bad decision...

Which is just using Upheaval on CD since it automatically ligns up. No thought process involved.

Ok, so, basically, the only management you mentionned (Del+LS) always ligns up with BW to compensate for misspending blood, but you use "ligning up" as a way to dismiss any actual management ?

[EpicOverlord85]

Yes, build 50, spend 50 on Living Shadow.

LS and Del lign up once every 6 minutes, and for every LS+Del, you have BW available to quickly rebuild any blood you need.

WAR has to make sure to not use Inner Release at a bad moment, or he'll lose Storm's Eye, also to not use Infuriate during Inner Release, but to have it far enough in its CD so that it can recharge it without waste during the Fell Cleave spam, while still using Upheaval on CD, IR or not. Also Nascent Flash is better aligned with a burst window, so that your target can take full benefit from it.

But DRK isn't busy. On top of having only one combo, it doesn't have any actual management to do with its main damage buff or its ressources. And I was suggesting a new finisher because it's an easy "fix". But sure, you could give it another MP spender, so that you'd actually have to judge if you risk losing Darkside, or reducing either the MP gain or the duration, so that refreshing it too soon would be a bad decision...

This and your previous post exactly.

[shao32]

This was the case in SB but has been made completely trivial by the introduction of a charge system on Infuriate. You can let the CD slide and use it whenever you want as long as you don't wait after the 2 charges are up.

WAR use the nascent chaos on TA and other buff windows, they still have to manage infuriate for that purpose saving one to all cost and manage the other one to don't overcap and if you are lucky land 2 on buff windows.

Which is just using Upheaval on CD since it automatically ligns up. No thought process involved.

upheavan and onslaught.

Again, completely trivial since Infuriate now has a charge, allowing you to delay its usage without any DPS loss.

same explanation as before so is not trivial.

I'm still waiting on the "lot of stuff and mechanics that WAR has to manage". Everything you said here can be done by just pressing buttons on CD with no thought process involved. And there you just listed things that DRK has to do and it's already more than what WAR has to do. You just contradicted yourself.

Again I'm not saying DRK is hard or complex. Tanks are all easy af this expac and DRK definitely could use some more little things to make it stand out more (especially when looking at Delirium and IR). But saying DRK is WAR with less things to do is beyond ignorance.

well lets compare, WAR have to manage a damage buff (storm eye), DRK darkside currently status is autokeep mode so they don't manage anything.
WAR have to manage his gauge more constantly to avoid overcap thanks to infuriate and onslaught if you need it compared to DRK that just use bloodspiller on sight and only look at his gauge when living shadow is coming every 120s wich is 4-5 times in a fight as much.
WAR have to keep atention to use infuriate as i say before bcs is a dps lose under inner release, DRK doesnt have anything like that so thats extra stuff you don't want to fat fingered.
upheaval needs to being used properly or you don't have it under inner release witch is a DPS lose too, DRK oGCD are both under 60s so they will yes or yes go in to the respective raid buffs (since the job don't have any personal buff to use his oGCD) and salted earth is kinda bortherline but have the same problem.

both jobs have to manage his stuff and DRK doesn't manage more that WAR specially since most if his stuff is scriped like his MP usage trivilized like darkside or unused like living shadow timer wich leads to DRK have to think less on what they are doing specially on they downtimes.

[Freyyy]

Ok, so, basically, the only management you mentionned (Del+LS) always ligns up with BW to compensate for misspending blood, but you use "ligning up" as a way to dismiss any actual management ?

But this is just not true at all. You're not using them back to back or on the same oGCD slot in the opener. They are slightly delayed from eachother. It can also severely be altered by fight mechanics forcing you to delay one or more of these CDs, completely changing their timings and the way it interacts with your resources. Raid bosses aren't dummies. There are times where you have Del with LS close to coming back but you don't have BW at the same time to compensate so you have to plan on having enough gauge before hitting Del so that you'll be able to hit LS right as it comes up after it. Again, it's not super complex but it's still more to worry about than WAR who just has to press Upheaval immediatly whenever it's available. Also, Blood Weapon, which is considered as DRK's Infuriate, isn't just "press and get" with a charge system that makes it very easy to manage. It gives you the extra resources by altering your resource generation on every GCD, making some give you 10 and some give you 30 (since it'll always add 10 extra Blood), which is more active than just pressing the button and getting 50 gauge with a very big and forgiving window of use. It also alters the Delirium phase by making it generate Blood instead of not. Also, even when BW + Del + LS are lining up (which won't happen at the exact same time, it'll line up in a delayed fashion making it more "awkward" in a good way IMO), if you just mindlessly spend gauge everytime you get 50 you're gonna end up delaying LS by multiple GCDs nonetheless since Del + BW only generates 10 per GCD.

WAR has to make sure to not use Inner Release at a bad moment, or he'll lose Storm's Eye, also to not use Infuriate during Inner Release, but to have it far enough in its CD so that it can recharge it without waste during the Fell Cleave spam, while still using Upheaval on CD, IR or not. Also Nascent Flash is better aligned with a burst window, so that your target can take full benefit from it.

The thing with SE having the risk to drop because of IR has also been made trivial by ShB since you can now start your combo, go into IR, then after your 5 FCs just continue the combo. Also, SE has 30sec duration. It's very forgiving with IR being only 10. You can go into IR with 15 seconds left on Eye while having your combo started and just end your combo with Eye after your FC spam and it won't drop. It's... Literally just changing your combo ender once every 30s, as I said. Same with Infuriate as I said earlier. The charge system made it completely trivial since you can wait up to twice its CD and still not lose any DPS. It makes FC cutting its CD by 5sec much more forgiving to optimise compared to SB even when accounting for the fact that IR wants you to avoid using it for 10sec. There's nothing more to manage than before, on the contrary. IR cuts Infuriate's CD by 25sec in total. The charge system gives you a whole extra 60 seconds of flexibility. You just have to use it at least once some time before going IR and you'll be fine. And what's your point with Nascent Flash ? It'll be used on mechanics that require it whether it's during a burst window or not. You're not gonna delay your burst just for that. You might hold on to an Infuriate charge for that but the fight dictates its use more than anything (when you're not just using Raw Intuition for a TB on yourself that is). You sound like you're overthinking WAR a lot.

Also again, I didn't say that DRK was a busy job. I said it was more busy than braindead WAR. Of course, compared to DPS jobs it's very lackluster. I also want SE to make tanks more complex and engaging. I've been saying it on multiple threads. Tanking in this game feels more and more shallow. I just don't think that "it only has one combo" is a valid reason to say a job is less busy or braindead. There are plenty of other reasons, and just giving them an extra combo finisher won't fix its problems. It might help (I suggested to give us Power Slash back with an interesting effect myself some time ago), but if we want to make the jobs more interesting and impactful we need more. And I'm more and more leaning towards the idea that combos are more limiting factors rather than interesting gameplay mechanics in a tab targetting game with such a long GCD. It takes a lot of space and time for something that could take one slot. Space and time that could be used for more interesting skills and mechanics within every job in the game.

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Every single one of your points about WAR are just like... "WAR just has to not be stupid". Nothing in there is as complex as you try to make it sound like and/or contradicts any of my points.

[Izsha]

Really? A pissing match beteeen the 2 simplist tanks both trying to make their jobs sound like rocket science? Both jobs are pretty braindead right now and shadows of their older versions that had actual resource management, procs, and multiple combos, more defensive skills to manage, stance dancing, enmity concerns, etc.

You giys are just sounding ridiculous attempting to make these jobs sound so complex. They just arent. Drk has a bunch of ogcds, can bank/spend mp for raid buff optimization, and manage tbn properly. War banks gauge the same way as drks mp for burst windows, maintains eye, and (should be) managing nascent around your own damage flexibility and mitigation needs in a tweaked way that drk tries to min max tbn. None of these are terribly challenging, especially when se just reworked virtually every job to be steamlined and simplified way down from their previously punishing versions.

[Reynhart]

Really? A pissing match beteeen the 2 easiest tanks both trying to make their jobs sound like rocket science?

No, it's a match to decide which job is the most braindead. And my job being DRK, I'm definitely not advocating how it's more complex than WAR, which is precisely the reason why I think it should have more things to manage, like a buff tied to a second combo, or something else to use MP for, that could make losing darkside a thing you have to actively avoid.