Monk rework/dmg nerf idea.

[Vendalwind]

First: Here is the rework again quoted and tweaked a bit.
For Iruru I would assume you agree with my goals 2 and 3, but not 4 and 1 is that correct?

-Resurrect Tornado Kick from the dead. TK gives a 5 second buff window, during which if Anatman is used within that window Anatmans effect will be enhanced. Lock TK behind Fists of wind and GL4. TK still removes all GL stacks on use

-Anatman when used Immediatly increases GL by 1 and chakra by 1. If channeled for a long duration while in combat increases GL and Chakras further, 30 seconds for complete charge from 0. The immediate effect of Anatman if used when under TK's 5 second buff raises GL by 3 and chakra by 1.

-If Anatman is used out of combat it's cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds.

-Twin snakes buff lasts 1 second longer. This accommodates the 5% loss of speed during the burst phase, AND accommodates the mild slowdown from Tornado Kick, Anatman usage.

-Riddle of Fire again locked behind Fists of Fire. Fists of Fire becomes the dedicated burst phase mode. Leaving Fist of Fire early ends Riddle of Fire early

-I'm removing my changes to form shift, they were clearly un-popular.

-Mantra is now locked behind Fists of Earth, So is Riddle of Earth. Mantra enhanced to a team wide 20 second bloodbath from MNKs attacks +5% heals received. Now they can't be used as a negative balancing point because they inflict a dps tax upon use themselves.

-Fists of Earth is now a stance that can facilitate the recovery of a raid group after a healer dies, but at a significant dps loss for the duration it is sustained. Leaving Fist of Earth Early Ends Riddle of Earth and Mantra early.

-Brotherhood no longer opens chakras by chance on friendly weapon skill, becoming less team dependent. Now it just further boosts the rate of your own chakra buildup by 30% (ie 100% on crit)

-Nerf potency on many of the combo moves mildly. -10 on all but twin snakes. -20 to six sided. -20 to tornado kick. Keep leaden fist bonus at 300 tho. Hopefully thats enough, and not too big of a nerf. This nerf amount could be adjusted

I didn't discuss what would change rotation ally because of my rework, I wanted people to think through that themselves. So going to do a walkthrough of what it would effect.

The current MNK opener uses Fire Stance. This wouldn't change, you would just be in fire stance for longer and return to fire stance for 20 seconds out of 90. That time segment, is your brotherhood, PB burst phase with an extra 20% dmg at a loss of only 5% speed. So the opener would remain largely exactly the same, except anatman would be moved to prepull, and the shift to Fists of Wind would happen later.
Opener would be ->

Anatman(unchanneled) ->Meditate->Fists of Fire-> Form Shift X3 -> true north -> Shoulder Tackle -> Demolish ->Dragon Kick, weave POT -> Twin Snakes, weave Riddle of Fire(20second burst begins) -> Demolish, weave brotherhood -> Forbidden Chakra -> Bootshine, weave Perfect Balance (GL is already at 3 so move straight into Leaden burst -> Dragon Kick, weave Elixir Field ->Bootshine, weave shoulder tackle -> Dragon Kick -> Bootshine ->dragon kick ->Bootshine ->Snap Punch(Snap punch is moved to sustain GL mid PB)->Dragon kick->Bootshine,weave Forbidden Chakra (its guaranteed by this moment, but could have proc'ed earlier due to my brotherhood changes)->Twin Snakes, weave Fist of Wind-> Demolish (grants GL4)->Dragon Kick, weave Shoulder tackle
Opener complete. Player is now in riddle of wind with 4 GL and ALL play resumes as normal

*Changes to the rotation*
None to the basics of it. player can still choose to do the Double True rotation, or the standard Rotation depending on their ability to handle positional dancing.
Once every 60 seconds a TK->Anatman combo becomes available. Performing this combo works as follows:
GCD,weave TK->GCD (greased lightning absent), weave Anatman -> GCD (GL returns to level 3)

Optimally This would occur with Bootshine or Dragon kick as the first GCD, thus Twin snakes or True strike (the least powerful hitters) would be the GCD that loses GL bonus, Then after Anatman a finisher Demolish or Snap punch would be used to return IMMEDIATLY to GL4
But optimal may not always work. This is a big potency gain getting back the 430 oGCD Tornado kick with limited downsides.

Occasionally the TK-Anatman combo would have to be delayed for FoF phase. Since its unavailable in Fists of Fire there is no reason to try to align it with Fists of Fire's burst phase. Thus it adds very minimal complexity, just returns use of TK, and Perfect balance still maintains its burst ability to always deliver Leaden Fisted Bootshines.

Other changes: Riddle of earth weave is gone from the standard rotation, Positionals have to be maintained with more skill again.
Double true rotation should remain uneffected by the speed nerfs when in Fists of Wind because speed is only dropped for 1 GCD via the TK Anatman combo.
Six Sided Star and Meditation are still used for disconnects, and works as a safety net to maintain GL.
AOE rotation and Chakras are untouched, just augmented to be a bit more self reliant, and slightly more dependable during burst phase as crit hits during that burst phase will guarantee a chakra opening.

So you see my changes don't screw up the rotation really at all. They DO re-instate the slow down of FoF/RoF, but only for 20 seconds and at a very big 20% dmg+ net gain during that phase.

The Thread OP has since been edited to reflect the cumulative ideas here.

-Irura I am excited to see what you think of this after you read it all the way through. If you still hold the same dislike for it... fine. Im not frustrated with your distaste for the slows. Just please. Stop trying to pointlessly shut down discussion.

[IruruCece]

-Irura I am excited to see what you think of this after you read it all the way through.

I can respect your attempts to try and keep the Fists and the insistence having Monks weave them in their opener more actively, but honestly, this still just adds more things to worry about while trying to retain buttons that historically haven't meant much to the identity of the job outside of inertia.

What has bothered me for a very long time about the changes Monk HAS received is the loss of damage OGCDs because of button bloat, while three particular buttons survive from expansion to expansion, buttons that we have historically used in extremely limited ways.

I can't accept the slow, even for the damage increase. You've got to remember that Monk was in a pretty similar position in Stormblood. I came into the game somewhere in the middle of Heavensward, but I can not remember a time when Monk's damage was ever horrible. Even before patches gave us the Tornado Kick rotation, it's not like our damage was so terrible that we were where NIN was at the start of ShB. Riddle of Fire + Brohood was still incredibly potent. But Monks HATED the slow it brought us, because it was antithetical to everything our job has been. The devs were telling the kings and queens of speed to slow down for a sec. In terms of gameplay, it was incredibly jarring, and even the developers were forced to recognize that the majority of Monks vocal about issues in the game were decidedly against it. And honestly, it wasn't the first time that Monks were given an ability that slowed us down, we got that with TK. But at least TK could be relegated to "the boss is gonna leave hit em one more time". RoF was a jarring thing were expected to regularly put up with.

I don't want to go really fast, have to slow down a bit to do something else, then go fast again. That's not where my enjoyment for Monk has ever been. My enjoyment has been the pure aggression it demands from the player to stick to the mob, make the positionals, and maintain our buffs. There is not a single other DPS in the game that replicates that gameplay for me. Muddling it up with additional technicalities just doesn't appeal.

The problem with the kit right now isn't that Fists are sucking up space and need to be made better, its that Fists exist, and we have a glut of ways to maintain GL and ignore core mechanics of the job. I would much rather trade the Fists for damage OGCDs that interacted with our primary combos in some way. THAT is something that would give me more buttons to push, while maintaining the speed and aggression I enjoy.

[Vendalwind]

I can respect your attempts to try and keep the Fists and the insistence having Monks weave them in their opener more actively, but honestly, this still just adds more things to worry about while trying to retain buttons that historically haven't meant much to the identity of the job outside of inertia.

What has bothered me for a very long time about the changes Monk HAS received is the loss of damage OGCDs because of button bloat, while three particular buttons survive from expansion to expansion, buttons that we have historically used in extremely limited ways.

I can't accept the slow, even for the damage increase. You've got to remember that Monk was in a pretty similar position in Stormblood. I came into the game somewhere in the middle of Heavensward, but I can not remember a time when Monk's damage was ever horrible. Even before patches gave us the Tornado Kick rotation, it's not like our damage was so terrible that we were where NIN was at the start of ShB. Riddle of Fire + Brohood was still incredibly potent. But Monks HATED the slow it brought us, because it was antithetical to everything our job has been. The devs were telling the kings and queens of speed to slow down for a sec. In terms of gameplay, it was incredibly jarring, and even the developers were forced to recognize that the majority of Monks vocal about issues in the game were decidedly against it. And honestly, it wasn't the first time that Monks were given an ability that slowed us down, we got that with TK. But at least TK could be relegated to "the boss is gonna leave hit em one more time". RoF was a jarring thing were expected to regularly put up with.

I don't want to go really fast, have to slow down a bit to do something else, then go fast again. That's not where my enjoyment for Monk has ever been. My enjoyment has been the pure aggression it demands from the player to stick to the mob, make the positionals, and maintain our buffs. There is not a single other DPS in the game that replicates that gameplay for me. Muddling it up with additional technicalities just doesn't appeal.

The problem with the kit right now isn't that Fists are sucking up space and need to be made better, its that Fists exist, and we have a glut of ways to maintain GL and ignore core mechanics of the job. I would much rather trade the Fists for damage OGCDs that interacted with our primary combos in some way. THAT is something that would give me more buttons to push, while maintaining the speed and aggression I enjoy.

Just responding to let you know I respect your above post and am one of the people that thumbed up it.