Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Kabooa]

Summoner.

Hear me out.

Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda are now miniature trances (No Demi Summon) that impact the Summoner directly with a new baseline kit.

Ifrit and Titan are your melee trances.

Melee magic dps. *finger guns*

[Archwizard]

Back on topic!

I've been pondering mechanics for a Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer/whatever for some time now, and while I have a couple basic ideas as a start, it's still very simple. I'm largely tackling this from the perspective of someone whose experience is mostly with caster jobs, but who has recently been leveling DRK and DRG, so my apologies if it sounds too familiar to start with but there's plenty of room for expansion.

So first and foremost, I do feel somewhat inspired by Duelle's concept for a Red Mage rework, which largely takes the melee combo we already have and increases its uptime. 1-2-3 melee hits, third hit gives a proc that will make reduce the cast time of your next spell a la Dualcast, and your next spell can be a choice between a damage buff (such as Imperil) or a hard-hitting magic attack (TBD). Before we get to branching this is a pretty standard structure for most melee, and not too dissimilar from DRG's Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw mechanic.

Secondly, and as I've said several times, there's a plethora of sources we can use for inspiration for a Spellblade in terms of filling out kit abilities:

• Commando, Ravager, Synergist and Saboteur abilities from FF13, including Flame/Frost/Spark/Aqua/Galestrike, Blitz/Area Sweep, etc
• Warp Strike and Armiger skills from FF15, as well as the Link Strike ability we copied in the crossover event
• Rune Fencer's Harbor Runes from FF11
• Celes Chere's Rune Knight abilities from FF5
• Rune Knight/Sword Saint (and similar jobs) abilities from FFT
• En-spells from across the series
• Virtually every job with a "Spellblade" command throughout the series
• Probably any with a "Swordplay" ability, since aside from Samurai there is a surprising lack of sword-wielding jobs who actually use those skills
• Some skills from Kingdom Hearts, perhaps?

However, the minor downside to this is that several of these skills are distinct in terms of elemental typing, which is largely irrelevant to 14 without an elemental wheel. Thus, skills like Flamestrike and Sparkstrike would have to either be merged or made fundamentally distinct from one another. As RDM took the former route, I'm not opposed to the latter.

So for a small sampler platter I prepared:

Resource gauge tracks the current Enchantment timer and stocked Runic Charges.

For the time being, consider all attacks in each "Chain" section to be interchangeable within each step of a combo.

Chain 1 attacks:
- Smite: Deal unaspected damage to the target
- Sparkstrike/Thunder Stroke: Deal minor lightning damage to the target and gain Enthunder, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to chain additional lightning damage to nearby enemies; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enblizzard
- Nightblade: Deal minor damage to the target and siphon off a percentage of the damage dealt as HP

Chain 2 attacks:
- Flamestrike/Flametongue: Deal fire damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enfire, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a modicum of additional fire damage and inflict a stacking DoT effect; mutually exclusive with Enblizzard and Enthunder
- Froststrike/Icebrand: Deal ice damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enblizzard, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a larger amount of additional ice damage and return MP; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enthunder
- Aquastrike/Liquid Steel: Deal increased water damage to the target; does not interfere with current enchantments
- Blitz: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment

Chain 3 attacks:
- Galestrike: Deal wind damage to the target; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD
- Whirlwind: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD

Spells (5 sec cast time apiece):
- Imperil: Deal minor unaspected damage and increase target vulnerability to your magic damage for a modest MP cost
- Banish: Deal heavy unaspected damage to a single target for a high MP cost
- Alterna: Deal moderate damage to the target and diminishing damage to nearby enemies for a heavy MP cost

For each use of a finishing spell, the user gains a Runic Charge. Upon accumulating 3 Runic Charges, the user has access to one of two Finishing moves:
- Ars Arcanum: After a cast time, unleash a devastating multi-hit melee attack on the target
- Aetherial Slice: After a cast time, unleash a wave-motion attack against enemies in a cone before you

Gap closer:
- Warp Strike: Throw an aetherial blade toward the enemy and teleport to it, dealing damage to the target; 30 sec CD
--> Improved Warp Strike: Allows the accumulation of charges on Warp Strike, allowing it to be used twice in succession
--> Link Strikes: Allows Warp Strike to be used on allied targets as well, restoring the target's HP and causing your next Warp Strike within 15 sec to critically hit

Ranged attack:
- Strike Raid: Instantly toss your weapon at the target in a spinning slash before summoning it back to your hand. 20% chance to gain Quickening in the process.

Other oGCDs:
- Breaker Blade: Deal Earth elemental damage damage and extend your current enchantment's duration
- Tempered Saber: Increase personal attack power and accuracy for a short duration
- Endrain: Enchant your allies' weapons, causing all weaponskills and spells to siphon off a percentage of damage dealt as HP
- Runic Shell: Create a barrier, absorbing magic damage received by all allies for a brief duration to charge your own MP

Rough idea is:
- Chain Smite -> Flametongue -> Galestrike -> Imperil to open or keep debuffs up
- Chain Smite -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Banish as your core combo to build up to Ars Arcanum
- Weave Icebrand in place of Flametongue/Liquid Steel when Flametongue's DoT stacks to its maximum
- Chain Thunder Stroke -> Blitz -> Whirlwind -> Alterna for AoE damage to build Aetherial Slice
--> Alternately, Thunder Stroke -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Alterna in two-targets
- Spam Strike Raid at range unless a proc comes up to cast a spell
- Nightblade to recover, since Bloodbath won't really be an option with all this magic damage now will it

Again, plenty of room for expansion and I would love to hear others' ideas or critiques. All names are placeholder (though I do like the idea of a Water attack inheriting the benefits of other skills).

I can see a Spellblade wearing the same Maiming/Slaying gear as a Dragoon, for a more Knightly feel to its armor than MNK/SAM/NIN. My question at this point is what kind of weapon it would wield -- likely some kind of sword, but there's still some wiggle room there. You could go with Hand-and-half swords to represent its fluidity between styles sort of like Alisaie before she switched to RDM, or call back to its more Middle Eastern outfit in FF5 and say curved swords -- sabers, scimitars, falchions, dao, khopesh, shamshir, etc -- like BLU did in FF11.

[Atamis]

I'm not sure what, mechanically, would set it apart from the other melee DPS.

Late to the party here, but I just don't see why this has to be an issue. They are always mangling classes, or streamlining them depending on how much you like the current class, so why can't certain classes play similar to others? I can see certain classes being a sort of offspec to other classes, or retain playstyles some people love on a class while being able to fix that same playstyle that other people despise something of.

I'll just take NIN as a example. Some people detest the mudra system, other people really like the complexity it adds to the class, and they both tend to agree they need more damage but some people want to remove the mudras to offset it and bring the damage up.
What if instead of such drastic changes, an in between class was added that was essentially just NIN without the mudras? Its seems to be a common excuse that "X can't be added because its too close to Y" but it seems like it would be a better excuse to have them add X because its kinda like Y but without xyz.
In this case I would add the "Assassin" class common to the Tactics series along side the Ninjas.
They would retain the sneaky rogue-like playstyle while also combining some of the monks aesthetics, wielding Katars (some of the models mink already has) and could be the inbetween class for people who like the monk playstyle but not the monk aspects and people who like the rogue aspect but not the naruto nonsense.



The same thing can be said for Bards who want to be Rangers, and the Dark knights that want to be Cloud esque "Soldier" jobs.

[PatronasCharm]

I'm down for a Magical Melee DPS, I made a concept a while back and recently updated it calling it a "Mystic Fencer." You can find it here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...52#post5008152

LeoLupinos made an awesome concept too, you can find his here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/366700-Source-Blader-A-FFXIV-Original-Job?p=4678414&highlight=Source+Blader#post4678414

I also made one with a Gunbalde (Spell Fencer) when that was a hot topic. And to be honest, the reason I love GNB so much is because it's pretty close to a "Spellblade" since their attacks do some fun BOOM BOOMs, not as flashy as I'd love for it to be, because I want to see "Elemental" attacks on a sword and or weapon.

Let's hope we get to see one some day.

[Wayfinder3]

While Katie may have convey this feeling a bit brashly, i completely understand why she, and others feel RDM is worth discussing here. I truly understand the enthusiasm for those that want these jobs but, you also need consider why RDM is brought up here, because RDM would also be brought up if we were to talk about a job like Sage. FF has many jobs and ffxiv has typically taken attributes of jobs and combined them, examples being:

Berserker(FFV) and Viking(FFlll) to our Warrior.

Time Mage(FFV) to our Astrologian this one is interesting as AST originally had access to Haste/ga(old arrow/spread arrow but players often complained about this buff as it would misalign rotations do to not speeding up ogcd cooldowns), slow isn't feasible unless it's on mobs, it does have gravity, Lightspeed(a form of haste) and astral stasis(LB3) is lore wise rewinding time. i believe the devs have also hinted at AST being their attempt at time mage but i can't recall where.

Ranger(FF lll/V) to our Bard if anything, our bard is more a ranger than a bard as edward used a harp as a wep in FFIV and that didn't seem feasible enough to make 2 seperate jobs out of.

Mystic Knight(FFV) to our Red Mage. The only difference here is that while both jobs have the ability to use magic, the mystic knight imbues any of the spells learned as sword attacks adding magical elements to them (flare sword), this however is something RDM in concept, should be able to do. the enchanted melee combo is imbued with unaspected magic which is the same wording used for Ruin, Broil, Malefic, Holy, Darkness, Flare, and Red Magic in the world of XIV. this means in a later expansion, instead of giving us a new job thats thematically similar to red mage but their variety of spells are just sword strikes; we can just improve on the RDMs kit to implement these things. XIV version RDM as far as i know is the first to use unique sword magic in the form of Fleche and Contre Sixte which have the benefits of being physical hits that are obviously magic and that easily be explored more. i understand why you feel mystic knight could justifiably be it's own job because of the potential to be different, but RDM is already doing similar things you're listing, and all i'd see is a job thats basically rdm but instead it's fire strike, thunder strike, and aero strike instead of Verthunder, veraero, and verfire. some of you guys also mention buffs like Enfire, and Enwater as reasons for a Mystic Knight, but these were spells RDM also had access to in FFXI and are just adding magic to sword strikes which RDM already does.

I personally think it'd be easier to work Flare sword/ Holy sword etc... into RDM(Alisae has shown that Red Mage is capable of using very powerful sword magic and imbuing alot of aether into her blade), than it would be to make an entirely new job for the sole purpose of expanding on that one aspect of which the RDM already has. it's the same reason we don't need a job like Sage because the best thing about it is that it can use WHM, BLM and summons. RDM doesn't have the ability to use summons so that is the only real distinction between the 2. does this mean we should get a sage job? I say a hard no.
there a much better choices that i'd personally would like to see that are different enough from the jobs we have. Necromancer, Mime, and chemist are 3 very interesting to implement jobs that aren't thematically similar to other jobs we currently have.

This isn't me saying, you can't have it or it would be a bad idea and the devs would never do it. this is me saying what you're asking for can be used to improve on an existing jobs appeal instead of asking for a whole new one. It's not uncommon to hear players complain that 14s RDM is very shallow and missing a lot of depth. i often call it an expansion of 2.0s BLM as i feel this version of RDM is just style and lacking a lot of substance. These things you want to give away to a new job can be used to give RDM the substance the community actively feels it's missing.

This is why i think RDM is indeed relevant to the dicussion of a Melee spellblade job.

So to Katie_Kitty and all others, if you want to debate more about making Red Mage feel more special, please take it to an actual Red Mage thread.
This is the last time I will humor this subject here.

I suggest all others here do the same.

This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it is

[SaberMaxwell]

While Katie may have convey this feeling a bit brashly, i completely understand why she, and others feel RDM is worth discussing here. I truly understand the enthusiasm for those that want these jobs but, you also need consider why RDM is brought up here, because RDM would also be brought up if we were to talk about a job like Sage.

My problem with this whole thing comes up with the fact that chaining any and all spellblade fantasies to Red Mage's specific fantasies ends up with arguments like between me and Katie in the Invisible RDM thread regarding Red Mage's healing / support kit. I didn't pick Red Mage to be a backup healer, I picked it because it's the only spellblade DPS in the game, so when she wants Red Mage's healing / support kit to be expanded (which inevitably means it's going to be worse at actually doing DPS), I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

To boil the issue down to its bones, I suppose the problem is I didn't pick Red Mage because of Red Mage. Yet here I am, stuck in all of Red Mage's trappings because it's the closest I'll get to an actual Spellblade.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

[Wayfinder3]

My problem with this whole thing comes up with the fact that chaining any and all spellblade fantasies to Red Mage's specific fantasies ends up with arguments like between me and Katie in the Invisible RDM thread regarding Red Mage's healing / support kit. I didn't pick Red Mage to be a backup healer, I picked it because it's the only spellblade DPS in the game, so when she wants Red Mage's healing / support kit to be expanded (which inevitably means it's going to be worse at actually doing DPS), I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

To boil the issue down to its bones, I suppose the problem is I didn't pick Red Mage because of Red Mage. Yet here I am, stuck in all of Red Mage's trappings because it's the closest I'll get to an actual Spellblade.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

although it'll be hard pressed, you'd need to voice to SE for your disapproval of these healing abilties (granted thats apart of the rdm identity and personally, i would keep vercure and expand on the white magic support. verraise is a different story) however, RDM is first and foremost a dps, it'll be balanced as one and as such will be entitled to be closer to BLM and SMN. the fact that it isn't will result in uproar and even the jp community is desperately trying to get RDM some buffs because they don't understand why it's so weak. I don't see the need for a 5th melee, i think 4 is the absolute limit as Samurai's would likely fade away if they got even more competiton.

[SaberMaxwell]

although it'll be hard pressed, you'd need to voice to SE for your disapproval of these healing abilties (granted thats apart of the rdm identity and personally, i would keep vercure and expand on the white magic support. verraise is a different story) however, RDM is first and foremost a dps, it'll be balanced as one and as such will be entitled to be closer to BLM and SMN. the fact that it isn't will result in uproar and even the jp community is desperately trying to get RDM some buffs because they don't understand why it's so weak. I don't see the need for a 5th melee, i think 4 is the absolute limit as Samurai's would likely fade away if they got even more competiton.

You make good points, but it's not the healing itself that's the problem per say. It's the idea that my class fantasy for a Spellblade is crammed in with someone else's for an expanded healer kit. I can say I want nothing to do with healing at all, and you and Katie are right in saying "but that's Red Mage's identity." So it feels like I'm stuck with an undesirable identity just because it's the closest I can get to a Spellblade.

I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy.

[Wayfinder3]

You make good points, but it's not the healing itself that's the problem per say. It's the idea that my class fantasy for a Spellblade is crammed in with someone else's for an expanded healer kit. I can say I want nothing to do with healing at all, and you and Katie are right in saying "but that's Red Mage's identity." So it feels like I'm stuck with an undesirable identity just because it's the closest I can get to a Spellblade.

I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy.

RDM is about where it needs to be, it can receive tools such as party mitigation to fill that WHM identity, if the job were a Healer if it were a healer, it'd just be 4 buttons with different elemental names that are all basically just Glare while in addtion, players would complain about the woefully underwhelming DPS it would have for job thats a 1/3rd swordsman and Black mage. So making it a dps was the smart choice but the rotation is just very empty. while adding more melee will be more of an issue for mechanics.

as for a redesign i'd prefer consistent and planned melee phases down to the GCD(not like how it is now with it being tied to BW mana which is slightly RNG dependent) if the RDM melee combo was a 60sec Weaponskill combo that scaled it's cooldown like GNB's gnashing fang combo, i'd love it more. manafication can be changed to immediately reset the cooldown, refresh position skills, and the 10% damage up instead of what it does now. Then they can focus on making the the casting phase more interesting besides B W B W Melee Restart. They can have the mana build to a powerful GCD like (Flare Strike) that can be stored for a big spicy melee single target hits or (Salvation) a Melee AoE Light nuke. (these wouldn't break combo and share the same 1.5 gcd as E riposte and E Zwerchau) we'd also get a Melee combo AoE version that shares a cooldown with the single target combo but could be a bit different, regardless though, each time you reach mana cap, instead of sitting at 100, you can get to 50 to get 1 use and 100 to get another. So just don't stay at 100, hover around 50, until you've planned your uses of these skills and save 100/100 for pot windows or add phases where you can dump. it's very similar in design to Xenoglossy, but unlike xenoglossy, this skill isn't timed and is what our mana is leading too. Acceleration now goes to 60secs and gives us 50 gauge and a bit of mana so think of it like infuriate.

After using EMoulinet, you gain a stack similarly to sleeve draw or sword oath. Using Emoulinet would put the single target combo on CD, do AoE damage, and you get 2 stacks which would change to a secondary stack. then allow you to use E moulinet 2 more times before getting 3 total stacks then you can expend the stacks for Meltdown(of FF6 fame) so your 60sec melee combo(ST) is the Erip> Ezwe> Eredo>H/F>Scor and the AoE would be Emou X3 and Meltdown(stronger at 3 targets). niether cost B/W mana so you can use them when they're up and Impact can become Meltdown. you also have Flare Strike and Salvation niether of which break combo to really put out the damage.

Since RDM would have some really good utility, along with making Embolden Neutral damage(even if it needs to be put to a static 5%) we can introduce a Tether/Dance partner mechanic. Since Enfire and Water would be worthless in a game without elements. I'd make them Bravery and Faith. Bravery increases the damage of your target party member while applying Faith to you which increases the magic damage you deal. while active, it could increase the amount of BW mana by a predetermined amount to help push the flow. I prefer it to be a Stance that RDM can set at the start similar to dance partner(you don't refresh it with dances but instead it refreshed every 30secs while your mana is balanced and punishes RDMs for feeding too much on one side or, i wouldn't mind if it functioned similarly to Dragon sight but this feels like the most boring way of implementing it.regardless, it needs to be potent though. RDM should be contributing RDPS similarly to DNC and NIN and this buff feels like an aesthetically accurate way of doing just that. though not perfect as this is just rough conjecture. i've just given you methods that can add more Spellblade melee, More buffing through Sword magic, and a more compelling method of the rotation simply by adding a few more moving parts.

i feel like there is so much that can be done to implement this spellblade identity that we all want at the end of the day. the dev team just needs to understand that Stormblood Red mage was playing it safe. now the job can expand into more interesting gameplay. alot talk here about more RDM melee combos is completely missing the idea that RDM could just get more isolated Melee Hits. This way, you don't need to be in melee range more than you need to be with the current version. But you still get the feel of being a spellblader and caster. RDM has access to Black Magic, White Magic, and Melee proficiency. There is alot of potential to make an interesting job and we shouldn't be looking to find replacements that suit our taste just yet. if RDM is still doing this BW melee combo eventually nonsense by 7.0. then i agree, it's time for a new adaptation of the magic melee concept

[Archwizard]

This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it is

The objection I had was that Katie's point was completely off topic, and verged on opening a dialogue about reworking Red Mage in a thread about concepting a new job.
If she had gone into any other thread discussing a concept for a new Melee DPS and said "We shouldn't have any more melee jobs until they expand on RDM's melee potential," it would be a complete non sequitor and tossed out for taking quite a logical leap with regards to RDM's design future.
The only reason it was humored so long in this thread was because the title nebulously mentioned a Magic Melee DPS -- even without specifically discussing skills or playstyle that would infringe on Red Mage in any way, repeatedly stating that its very existence was a threat to Red Mage.

That's not feedback, that's just claiming the sky is falling and that the subject is forbidden.

I choose to no longer debate Red Mage's design (or the pointlessness of headcanon) in this thread. OP asked for ideas in concepting a new melee DPS, not reworking Red Mage.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

Not really. FF11 had Rune Fencer and Red Mage simultaneously as wildly different jobs in completely different roles, the former being one of the alternate names of a Spellblade job.
By contrast, Astrologian is in itself an expansion of and effective rename to Time Mage. Concepts like "Berserker", "Viking" and "Ranger" are largely hollow jobs known only for one gimmick, or having certain stats or equipment proficiencies, and would each be difficult to expand into a full job on their own. I wouldn't ask for a "Magus" or "Devout" either because they're literally made just to be suped-up versions of other jobs.

To say that Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer falls into the same category is to completely fail to understand the job. Which I doubt, given you yourself said you largely play Red Mage to fulfill the separate Spellblade fantasy, not for Red Mage itself.

The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
Case in point, two camps that want separate things from Red Mage -- one for it to be the first caster with every element and support skills, one for it to be a melee hybrid, both simultaneously complaining their side feels shallow. If anything deflating RDM in this regard can only help add depth to whatever remains.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.

I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy.

Doubtful, largely because of what we ended up with for Scholar. Throughout previous entries Scholar and Red Mage have had something of an overlap wherein both would offer a mix of White and Black Magic; with Scholar covering that same fantasy in a healing role, Red Mage would have to have been greatly set apart, which was easier to accomplish by putting the two in different roles -- which goes back to being relevant to my above point, as a Melee DPS role is largely a separate role from a Caster DPS.