Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Wayfinder3]

While Katie may have convey this feeling a bit brashly, i completely understand why she, and others feel RDM is worth discussing here. I truly understand the enthusiasm for those that want these jobs but, you also need consider why RDM is brought up here, because RDM would also be brought up if we were to talk about a job like Sage. FF has many jobs and ffxiv has typically taken attributes of jobs and combined them, examples being:

Berserker(FFV) and Viking(FFlll) to our Warrior.

Time Mage(FFV) to our Astrologian this one is interesting as AST originally had access to Haste/ga(old arrow/spread arrow but players often complained about this buff as it would misalign rotations do to not speeding up ogcd cooldowns), slow isn't feasible unless it's on mobs, it does have gravity, Lightspeed(a form of haste) and astral stasis(LB3) is lore wise rewinding time. i believe the devs have also hinted at AST being their attempt at time mage but i can't recall where.

Ranger(FF lll/V) to our Bard if anything, our bard is more a ranger than a bard as edward used a harp as a wep in FFIV and that didn't seem feasible enough to make 2 seperate jobs out of.

Mystic Knight(FFV) to our Red Mage. The only difference here is that while both jobs have the ability to use magic, the mystic knight imbues any of the spells learned as sword attacks adding magical elements to them (flare sword), this however is something RDM in concept, should be able to do. the enchanted melee combo is imbued with unaspected magic which is the same wording used for Ruin, Broil, Malefic, Holy, Darkness, Flare, and Red Magic in the world of XIV. this means in a later expansion, instead of giving us a new job thats thematically similar to red mage but their variety of spells are just sword strikes; we can just improve on the RDMs kit to implement these things. XIV version RDM as far as i know is the first to use unique sword magic in the form of Fleche and Contre Sixte which have the benefits of being physical hits that are obviously magic and that easily be explored more. i understand why you feel mystic knight could justifiably be it's own job because of the potential to be different, but RDM is already doing similar things you're listing, and all i'd see is a job thats basically rdm but instead it's fire strike, thunder strike, and aero strike instead of Verthunder, veraero, and verfire. some of you guys also mention buffs like Enfire, and Enwater as reasons for a Mystic Knight, but these were spells RDM also had access to in FFXI and are just adding magic to sword strikes which RDM already does.

I personally think it'd be easier to work Flare sword/ Holy sword etc... into RDM(Alisae has shown that Red Mage is capable of using very powerful sword magic and imbuing alot of aether into her blade), than it would be to make an entirely new job for the sole purpose of expanding on that one aspect of which the RDM already has. it's the same reason we don't need a job like Sage because the best thing about it is that it can use WHM, BLM and summons. RDM doesn't have the ability to use summons so that is the only real distinction between the 2. does this mean we should get a sage job? I say a hard no.
there a much better choices that i'd personally would like to see that are different enough from the jobs we have. Necromancer, Mime, and chemist are 3 very interesting to implement jobs that aren't thematically similar to other jobs we currently have.

This isn't me saying, you can't have it or it would be a bad idea and the devs would never do it. this is me saying what you're asking for can be used to improve on an existing jobs appeal instead of asking for a whole new one. It's not uncommon to hear players complain that 14s RDM is very shallow and missing a lot of depth. i often call it an expansion of 2.0s BLM as i feel this version of RDM is just style and lacking a lot of substance. These things you want to give away to a new job can be used to give RDM the substance the community actively feels it's missing.

This is why i think RDM is indeed relevant to the dicussion of a Melee spellblade job.

So to Katie_Kitty and all others, if you want to debate more about making Red Mage feel more special, please take it to an actual Red Mage thread.
This is the last time I will humor this subject here.

I suggest all others here do the same.

This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it is

[SaberMaxwell]

While Katie may have convey this feeling a bit brashly, i completely understand why she, and others feel RDM is worth discussing here. I truly understand the enthusiasm for those that want these jobs but, you also need consider why RDM is brought up here, because RDM would also be brought up if we were to talk about a job like Sage.

My problem with this whole thing comes up with the fact that chaining any and all spellblade fantasies to Red Mage's specific fantasies ends up with arguments like between me and Katie in the Invisible RDM thread regarding Red Mage's healing / support kit. I didn't pick Red Mage to be a backup healer, I picked it because it's the only spellblade DPS in the game, so when she wants Red Mage's healing / support kit to be expanded (which inevitably means it's going to be worse at actually doing DPS), I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

To boil the issue down to its bones, I suppose the problem is I didn't pick Red Mage because of Red Mage. Yet here I am, stuck in all of Red Mage's trappings because it's the closest I'll get to an actual Spellblade.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

[Wayfinder3]

My problem with this whole thing comes up with the fact that chaining any and all spellblade fantasies to Red Mage's specific fantasies ends up with arguments like between me and Katie in the Invisible RDM thread regarding Red Mage's healing / support kit. I didn't pick Red Mage to be a backup healer, I picked it because it's the only spellblade DPS in the game, so when she wants Red Mage's healing / support kit to be expanded (which inevitably means it's going to be worse at actually doing DPS), I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

To boil the issue down to its bones, I suppose the problem is I didn't pick Red Mage because of Red Mage. Yet here I am, stuck in all of Red Mage's trappings because it's the closest I'll get to an actual Spellblade.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

although it'll be hard pressed, you'd need to voice to SE for your disapproval of these healing abilties (granted thats apart of the rdm identity and personally, i would keep vercure and expand on the white magic support. verraise is a different story) however, RDM is first and foremost a dps, it'll be balanced as one and as such will be entitled to be closer to BLM and SMN. the fact that it isn't will result in uproar and even the jp community is desperately trying to get RDM some buffs because they don't understand why it's so weak. I don't see the need for a 5th melee, i think 4 is the absolute limit as Samurai's would likely fade away if they got even more competiton.

[Archwizard]

This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it is

The objection I had was that Katie's point was completely off topic, and verged on opening a dialogue about reworking Red Mage in a thread about concepting a new job.
If she had gone into any other thread discussing a concept for a new Melee DPS and said "We shouldn't have any more melee jobs until they expand on RDM's melee potential," it would be a complete non sequitor and tossed out for taking quite a logical leap with regards to RDM's design future.
The only reason it was humored so long in this thread was because the title nebulously mentioned a Magic Melee DPS -- even without specifically discussing skills or playstyle that would infringe on Red Mage in any way, repeatedly stating that its very existence was a threat to Red Mage.

That's not feedback, that's just claiming the sky is falling and that the subject is forbidden.

I choose to no longer debate Red Mage's design (or the pointlessness of headcanon) in this thread. OP asked for ideas in concepting a new melee DPS, not reworking Red Mage.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

Not really. FF11 had Rune Fencer and Red Mage simultaneously as wildly different jobs in completely different roles, the former being one of the alternate names of a Spellblade job.
By contrast, Astrologian is in itself an expansion of and effective rename to Time Mage. Concepts like "Berserker", "Viking" and "Ranger" are largely hollow jobs known only for one gimmick, or having certain stats or equipment proficiencies, and would each be difficult to expand into a full job on their own. I wouldn't ask for a "Magus" or "Devout" either because they're literally made just to be suped-up versions of other jobs.

To say that Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer falls into the same category is to completely fail to understand the job. Which I doubt, given you yourself said you largely play Red Mage to fulfill the separate Spellblade fantasy, not for Red Mage itself.

The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
Case in point, two camps that want separate things from Red Mage -- one for it to be the first caster with every element and support skills, one for it to be a melee hybrid, both simultaneously complaining their side feels shallow. If anything deflating RDM in this regard can only help add depth to whatever remains.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.

I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy.

Doubtful, largely because of what we ended up with for Scholar. Throughout previous entries Scholar and Red Mage have had something of an overlap wherein both would offer a mix of White and Black Magic; with Scholar covering that same fantasy in a healing role, Red Mage would have to have been greatly set apart, which was easier to accomplish by putting the two in different roles -- which goes back to being relevant to my above point, as a Melee DPS role is largely a separate role from a Caster DPS.

[Wayfinder3]

The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.

Couple things, 11 is a very different game than 14. 14's combat design requires that jobs be able to do the same things amongst their roles. this means, Rune Fencer, Mystic Knight, etc... wouldn't be this vastly different job from the actual melee dps in the game. instead, it'd just be a new flavor of MNK, DRG, SAM, and NIN, that happens to be thematically similar to RDM. 11 didn't have this issue so the comparison can't be made. proof of this claim is that every jobs utilities and kits are all fundamentally similar in this game, all tanks have invuls, all melee have gap closers and weak defensive cds or none at all, Healers kits mirror each other skill for skill except their unique gimmicks, all ranged have a troubadour equivalent. casters are the exception to this and thats only because BLM stubbornly won't get a raise. raise is currently the biggest issue plaguing casters so thats not even a good thing that the role is different in this way. in 11, RDM COULD actually substitute a healer

this means your new spellblader wouldn't be allowed to do alot of what you're hoping it can do and would instead just be another melee dps(we have 4 already) with weak or no defensives and a gap closer as well as a gimmick. the problem now comes in, regardless of how this job feels to play or if this gimmick is fun. If it doesn't do anything, people will perpetually dislike it. Look at SAM as proof and, you're asking for another job that'll invalidate SAM or get invalidated by NIN, DRG, and MNK. it's not worth it imo and, improving RDM seems like the better way of doing this instead of giving the melee dps role 5 jobs when it at best can only have 2 slots. you're also claiming the only way for them to expand on RDM is through magical ranged combat only but thats not entirely true either. they can expand on the melee dps nature of RDM without overstepping it's place as a caster dps by simpling making the melee combo refined and precise, my previous comment mentions a efficient way of adding new melee to RDM without comprising it's position as a ranged.

THe Summoner and Scholar example doesn't apply here very well because these were 2 seperate concept/jobs with nothing alike being tied to one base where as, fundamentally. RDM can easily stand in as the avatar for all other spellblading jobs because spellblader as itself is just a concept, it doesn't imply anything more than magic with a sword. Nobody here has asked for anything unique from this spellblader that RDM can't do, they just want another spellblader. Summoner and Scholar aren't remotely similar in concepts and the devs have openly stated regret in treating them as they did. Im not trying to say red mage monopolizes the spell blade position, im saying, the amount of jobs in this game is getting to become alot and we don't need to add another job to expand on a small concept that RDM can fill.

eventually, this game will have to stop adding new jobs. this holy trinity limitation means that the more jobs we get, the more jobs need to be able to clear content, which intern means more homogenization in what jobs offer. Look at the jobs as they are now, compared to Heavensward especially tanks. nearly pruned dry