Monk rework/dmg nerf idea.

[Silver-Strider]

1) Change the CD of Riddle of Fire/Brotherhood to 120 seconds. Extend the duration of Brotherhood to 20 seconds and have it apply to all damage.
2) Remove the GL requirement of Tornado Kick and instead have it be something that can only be used every 3rd refreshing of GL (This also applies to refreshing caused by Riddle of Earth and Anatman) with a 30 second CD.
3) Change Anatman to only grant GL stacks every 3 seconds, regardless of server ticks and lower the CD to 30 seconds.
4) Change SSS into an oGCD that can only be used after a successful Tornado Kick and grant 10 seconds of True North upon its execution with no slow effect.
5) Either remove the True North effect from Riddle of Earth entirely, or reduce it down to 10 seconds at the most.
6) Remove the Fist Stances and untie GL4 from them. They offer nothing to the class and are fluff that can be removed entirely. They can also make the fist stances into just weaker versions of Riddles that change to riddles later on, with Fist of Wind becoming a trait to increase movement speed and Riddle of Wind being the trait to unlock the 2nd Should Tackle.
7) Have Brotherhood naturally generate 1 Chakra every 3 seconds for its duration while also still maintaining the extra chance to earn them from allies.
8) Change Deep Meditation into a 100% guaranteed chakra on crit.

With Brotherhood/Riddle of Fire being on a longer CD you lower MNK's DPS a bit but with the changes to Tornado Kick/SSS as well as the adjustments to Brotherhood and Deep Meditation, you are able to soften the overall nerfs to be less detrimental to MNK as a whole by smoothing out its toolkit in a way that makes it actually enjoyable to utilize your full kit. Tornado kick is no longer a dead skill but something that helps you by unlocking SSS to get another True North effect and with skills like Anatman and Riddle of Earth providing a faster build up towards TK, you can keep that flow going.

Personally, I don't feel that MNK really need a damage nerf all things considered. People say that its over performing because Brotherhood/Mantra is this god tier utility and that ignoring positionals is somehow busted but considering how little those skills actually offer and that the other melee DPS don't even have half the positionals of MNK, I just don't see that as justification for a nerf.

[Shurrikhan]

Personally, I don't feel that MNK really need a damage nerf all things considered. People say that its over performing because Brotherhood/Mantra is this god tier utility and that ignoring positionals is somehow busted but considering how little those skills actually offer and that the other melee DPS don't even have half the positionals of MNK, I just don't see that as justification for a nerf.

To be fair, those with, say, at most a third of the positionals Monk has also often have at least three times the potency penalty for each positional missed, be it directly or through gauge generation.

Brotherhood, likewise, might not produce a Trick Attack's worth of damage, nor as frequently, but it's far from negligible, either.

[Ramura_Sono]

To be fair, those with, say, at most a third of the positionals Monk has also often have at least three times the potency penalty for each positional missed, be it directly or through gauge generation.

Only if you decide to conveniently forget guaranteed crit leaden fist bootshine exists. which is worth something like 200 potency (which after monks multipliers is around 310) when the increased chance of chakra is taken into account. No single missed positional save TA is a bigger loss.

Also stance dancing to enable/disable features would add nothing unless you gave everyhting an additonal feature dependent on what fist you're in. We've already had a taste of this with the TK rotation in SB. Was it fun? You betcha. But there was never any real reason any of the features we got to help enable such a rotation needed to be locked behind fist stances.

1) Change the CD of Riddle of Fire/Brotherhood to 120 seconds. Extend the duration of Brotherhood to 20 seconds and have it apply to all damage.
2) Remove the GL requirement of Tornado Kick and instead have it be something that can only be used every 3rd refreshing of GL (This also applies to refreshing caused by Riddle of Earth and Anatman) with a 30 second CD.
3) Change Anatman to only grant GL stacks every 3 seconds, regardless of server ticks and lower the CD to 30 seconds.
4) Change SSS into an oGCD that can only be used after a successful Tornado Kick and grant 10 seconds of True North upon its execution with no slow effect.
5) Either remove the True North effect from Riddle of Earth entirely, or reduce it down to 10 seconds at the most.
6) Remove the Fist Stances and untie GL4 from them. They offer nothing to the class and are fluff that can be removed entirely. They can also make the fist stances into just weaker versions of Riddles that change to riddles later on, with Fist of Wind becoming a trait to increase movement speed and Riddle of Wind being the trait to unlock the 2nd Should Tackle.
7) Have Brotherhood naturally generate 1 Chakra every 3 seconds for its duration while also still maintaining the extra chance to earn them from allies.
8) Change Deep Meditation into a 100% guaranteed chakra on crit.

Change RoE / SSS to grant a window where chakra generation is guaranteed or move chakra from an rng system to a more steady system of gain and I'd be all over this.

[Silver-Strider]

Only if you decide to conveniently forget guaranteed crit leaden fist bootshine exists. which is worth something like 200 potency (which after monks multipliers is around 310) when the increased chance of chakra is taken into account. No single missed positional save TA is a bigger loss.

Also stance dancing to enable/disable features would add nothing unless you literally gave everyhting an additonal feature dependent on what fist you're in. We've literally already had a taste of this with the TK rotation in SB. Was it fun? You betcha. But there was never any real reason any of the features we got to help enable such a rotation needed to be locked behind fist stances.



Change RoE / SSS to grant a window where chakra generation is guaranteed or move chakra from an rng system to a more steady system of gain and I'd be all over this.

In that case, leave RoE with the 10 second True North effect and have SSS instead grant you a 5 second buff (Let's call it Awakening to keep with the whole Meditation theme) in which all your weapon skills grant a guaranteed Chakra, regardless of crit.

[Shurrikhan]

Only if you decide to conveniently forget guaranteed crit leaden fist bootshine exists. which is worth something like 200 potency (which after monks multipliers is around 310) when the increased chance of chakra is taken into account. No single missed positional save TA is a bigger loss.

Also stance dancing to enable/disable features would add nothing unless you literally gave everyhting an additonal feature dependent on what fist you're in. We've literally already had a taste of this with the TK rotation in SB. Was it fun? You betcha. But there was never any real reason any of the features we got to help enable such a rotation needed to be locked behind fist stances.

At, say 3850 Critical Hit, the Leaden Fist Bootshine positional would be worth exactly 173.85 Monk potency, which would be worth 260.78 raw potency, 237 DRG potency, or 231 SAM potency, true. It is absurdly strong.

But the point I was replying to was the frequency of the positionals (that other jobs "don't have even half the positionals of MNK", and thus MNK deserves not to have its damage nerfed); had the complaint been the absurdity of LFB's punishment, I would have simply directed them to Trick Attack.
And it hardly seems worth saying that Monk is so positional-ridden that it needs BLM-level damage despite having Brotherhood just because every skill has one when their positionals are each worth only 20 potency, down from the 80 positional potency of DRG's combo finishers or the 64+ of any SAM finisher, and can be ignored for two-thirds of the time.

[Silver-Strider]

At, say 3850 Critical Hit, the Leaden Fist Bootshine positional would be worth exactly 173.85 Monk potency, which would be worth 260.78 raw potency, 237 DRG potency, or 231 SAM potency, true. It is absurdly strong.

But the point I was replying to was the frequency of the positionals (that other jobs "don't have even half the positionals of MNK", and thus MNK deserves not to have its damage nerfed); had the complaint been the absurdity of LFB's punishment, I would have simply directed them to Trick Attack.
And it hardly seems worth saying that Monk is so positional-ridden that it needs BLM-level damage despite having Brotherhood just because every skill has one when their positionals are each worth only 20 potency, down from the 80 positional potency of DRG's combo finishers or the 64+ of any SAM finisher, and can be ignored for two-thirds of the time.

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

[Vendalwind]

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

This is absolutely true. and it is generally easier for monks to miss positionals more frequently because they have no gaps in between their positionals, and additionally MNKs just well... have to use them more often.

I also agree with you on utility here. Damage utility should be able to when paired WITH a selfish dps exceed the total rDPS contribution of the selfish. If this is not true than dmg utility isnt actually valuable because welll.... it doesn't actually increase the damage the team does and without the 1% for role fulfillment having 4 selfish dps would be the strongest group possible. MNK does have mantra tho, as mild as its boost is.

Regardless the your argument with shurrikan here is one of -should difficulty be rewarded with dps- as it boils down. And there are many different perspectives on that in this forum. Most people think BLM's damage is justified by its position as a pure dps (no utility) or because it's high damage is only obtainable with high fight memorization and even some extra team effort to allow them to move less. And that really comes just down to how you think team comp should function. Shoudl people be there to support the all star glorious pure dpses, or should the team have to work as a whole with equal contributions approximately. You can tell I lean towards the second option can't you?

[Shurrikhan]

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

People would also "give a damn" about, say, DRG suddenly no longer having Raiden Thrust depend on F&C/WT's positional success. DRG's last two GCDs per combo are worth 120 potency. A Yuki-averted Meikyo has at least 192 positional potency. I don't think either of those costs would just be silently dismissed if some new buff suddenly allowed those to be ignored. We are most definitely that potency-grubbing.

And you're conflating two very different points in time. That's like saying "nobody cares if we break the glass once it's broken, so why should it matter if we break the glass in the first place?" Monk was by far and away the most positionally dependent melee... UNTIL we got Riddle of Earth v2. My argument was not about 5.0 Monk. It was not about 4.x Monk. It was not about 3.x or 2.x Monk. It was about Monk now, where its loses only 20 potency per missed positional on all but one skill and has no positional requirements for two-thirds of the time. It may still be the most positionally dependent, but it's not by any huge margin anymore.

I meant only that a job that carries additional rDPS-utility (and survivability utility atop that, in this case) should never have equal pDPS to a job that has no such utility, as that would necessarily mean one will now have more rDPS (raid contribution given - raid contribution taken + personal contribution) than the other, which is exactly what defines imbalance (+/- other attractors like Verraise, though those quickly have little to no impact). If you mean that there's nothing wrong with MNK and BLM having the same rDPS, then I agree. I mentioned it only because pDPS seemed the point being pushed in the posts leading up to my reply, and I do not want to see their rDPS differ.

[Vendalwind]

People would also "give a damn" about, say, DRG suddenly no longer having Raiden Thrust depend on F&C/WT's positional success. DRG's last two GCDs per combo are worth 120 potency. A Yuki-averted Meikyo has at least 192 positional potency. I don't think either of those costs would just be silently dismissed if some new buff suddenly allowed those to be ignored. We are most definitely that potency-grubbing.

And you're conflating two very different points in time. That's like saying "nobody cares if we break the glass once it's broken, so why should it matter if we break the glass in the first place?" Monk was by far and away the most positionally dependent melee... UNTIL we got Riddle of Earth v2. My argument was not about 5.0 Monk. It was not about 4.x Monk. It was not about 3.x or 2.x Monk. It was about Monk now, where its loses only 20 potency per missed positional on all but one skill and has no positional requirements for two-thirds of the time. It may still be the most positionally dependent, but it's not by any huge margin anymore.

I meant only that a job that carries additional rDPS-utility (and survivability utility atop that, in this case) should never have equal pDPS to a job that has no such utility, as that would necessarily mean one will now have more rDPS (raid contribution given - raid contribution taken + personal contribution) than the other, which is exactly what defines imbalance (+/- other attractors like Verraise, though those quickly have little to no impact). If you mean that there's nothing wrong with MNK and BLM having the same rDPS, then I agree. I mentioned it only because pDPS seemed the point being pushed in the posts leading up to my reply, and I do not want to see their rDPS differ.

Wonderfully clear. The rDPS to pDPS differentiation causes so many communication issues these days.
I have a habit of trying to be absolutely explicit every single time i mention balance and dps.
But I still forget and fail to denote that sometimes.

[Silver-Strider]

People would also "give a damn" about, say, DRG suddenly no longer having Raiden Thrust depend on F&C/WT's positional success. DRG's last two GCDs per combo are worth 120 potency. A Yuki-averted Meikyo has at least 192 positional potency. I don't think either of those costs would just be silently dismissed if some new buff suddenly allowed those to be ignored. We are most definitely that potency-grubbing.

And you're conflating two very different points in time. That's like saying "nobody cares if we break the glass once it's broken, so why should it matter if we break the glass in the first place?" Monk was by far and away the most positionally dependent melee... UNTIL we got Riddle of Earth v2. My argument was not about 5.0 Monk. It was not about 4.x Monk. It was not about 3.x or 2.x Monk. It was about Monk now, where its loses only 20 potency per missed positional on all but one skill and has no positional requirements for two-thirds of the time. It may still be the most positionally dependent, but it's not by any huge margin anymore.

I meant only that a job that carries additional rDPS-utility (and survivability utility atop that, in this case) should never have equal pDPS to a job that has no such utility, as that would necessarily mean one will now have more rDPS (raid contribution given - raid contribution taken + personal contribution) than the other, which is exactly what defines imbalance (+/- other attractors like Verraise, though those quickly have little to no impact). If you mean that there's nothing wrong with MNK and BLM having the same rDPS, then I agree. I mentioned it only because pDPS seemed the point being pushed in the posts leading up to my reply, and I do not want to see their rDPS differ.

And yet despite RoE, MNK is only ahead of SAM/DRG/NIN by ~400 DPS on the high end percentiles. It would make more sense to lower the punishment of missing positionals on DRG/SAM/NIN than to just nerf MNK for the sake of nerfing it, especially since MNK's toolkit still isn't as refined as it should be. Not dismissing that SAM/NIN have their own toolkit issues that need addressing too but we need to look at fixing everything before making drastic adjustments that ultimately might not be needed. If DRG's combo was less punishing to miss the positionals on, SAM got a rework on Shoha and NIN got its Mudra issues fixed, those alone could potentially even out the difference between all the melee DPS.

I also don't want to see the rDPS of BLM/MNK be different because I do feel its fair as well and that was what I was referring to so glad that we cleared that up.