NIN in 5.1

[Duskane]

If you like how unuser friendly mudra's are
Safe bet to say you won't enjoy NIN and say they "dumbed down" the job

[Tex_Mex]

who said i compare Nin with other melees? Actually the intention at launch was right Nin & Dnc at bottom due to TA & steps - sure Nin aDps was a bit too low yeah but with TA untouched the pot adjusts were bit over the top : /

The cool thing about the site that must not be named is that we actually can see exactly how the classes balance after the 5.05 changes. Even with the increase in overall dps from trick attack, Ninja is still behind the other melee dps and BLM. It is amazing to me that people claim that nin is over the top now, when they are still behind 4 other classes in terms of overall dps output (this is rDPS, which includes the increase from trick attack).

If you disagree with this statement, then you are not using the plethora of real data available to us by the site which must not be named.

[MerlinCross]

If you like how unuser friendly mudra's are
Safe bet to say you won't enjoy NIN and say they "dumbed down" the job

I mean I'm not the biggest fan of the Mudras but at the same time they're also a decent core part of Ninja. But hey they removed Dark Arts so they can also go into delete bin.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

If mudras were easier to deal with and pressing so many buttons resulted in more DPS than I'd be happy with where it's at, but unfortunately the class is literally fighting itself currently.

You have one side of the class which is the speedy high intensity DPS class meant to test your reaction timing and dealing with server ping.

And then you have the melee dps that's meant to debuff for other people.

Given that all of their utility from SB is gone now thanks to aggro management being nonexistent and trick attack being even less of a window than the TRUST npc version (lol) I think they have to just make a call on which they want NIN to be. Right now Monk has more easily accessible dps buff (that's also AOE) for physical attackers and a healer buff. The entire idea of basing rotations and everything around TRick Attack but then nerfing a class for Trick attack is good in theory, but then you look at Ninja's ridiculous kit compared to like Monk which really only has to hit 6 keys in sequence to easily out dps it.

It's not that NIN is "hard" so much as overly complicated and the problem comes from "What is the payoff for all this complication" and if it meant getting rid of RDPS or TA to get NIN where it should be (below DRG but higher than Monk unless NIN has the same nerfed utility MONK has) I'd welcome the change.

Right now I have to hit 30 buttons, open, hope that the server doesn't shit the bed in the middle of my rotation, stand in place to get another combo off which can easily go on a ridiculously long cooldown if an AOE hits, and that skill level is rewarded with "Okay" dps. The 5.1 patch did some good bandaid fixes but right now I'd say the identity of NIN is still at odds with the balancing they're trying to do for the classes.

tl;dr NIN needs to be hard to play but rewarding to pull off resulting in more dps (or more rdps or debuffs) or it needs to have its kit bolstered again around team buffs and/or utility. Right now the only reason it does such low damage is "Trick attack" and I think that's pretty shitty when classes like Monk and DRG have the kits they do.

[Tex_Mex]

tl;dr NIN needs to be hard to play but rewarding to pull off resulting in more dps (or more rdps or debuffs) or it needs to have its kit bolstered again around team buffs and/or utility. Right now the only reason it does such low damage is "Trick attack" and I think that's pretty shitty when classes like Monk and DRG have the kits they do.

I see your point, and I agree with a good portion of it, but the reason I'm scared is because I don't want the changes they implement to make the job easy. There are already enough easy jobs to play, and one of the main reasons I play NIN is because I enjoy the challenge it provides. As far as utility, I agree completely. Jobs like MNK which have huge personal DPS should not be given additional offensive utility. Oddly enough, it seems like SE is really trying to get away from DPS bringing additional utility to raids in ShB. Just look at BRD. It started as a DPS job that had a ton of support (it even had the healer LB early on) and its now just a ranger without a pet lol.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

If Mudras became the primary means of DPS with substantial buffs, I'd be down with that. Maybe allow mudra's to go Ten-Chi-Jin-Chi or Ten-Jin-Chi-Ten-Chi and introduce about 9 double builders ie Ten-Chi or Jin-Chi. Suddenly you can get 60+ different Ninjutsu and each one will take the same time that a current Ninjutsu does.

[Kuwago]

Might be just me, but I get why NIN DPS is very low but for it to be this low that the class is basically a joke is... not good. TBH, I thought NIN was going to be more of a debuffer since, historically speaking, Ninja's are more about stealth and hindering your enemies so that they can get away. Not saying the NIN should be able to nuke because they should be able to, I wouldn't mind being able to pump more debuffs to enemies other than TA.

[IruruCece]

If mudras were easier to deal with and pressing so many buttons resulted in more DPS than I'd be happy with where it's at, but unfortunately the class is literally fighting itself currently.

This whole post is good, in particular the bit about "complexity" and "reward."

I took ninja to 70 in Stormblood, and it wasn't the easiest job to learn. But it felt satisfying to finally "get" an opener down. Weaving in ninjutsu with my combos, even at my awkward skill level, felt like it was the way the job was meant to be. And when I was actually on top of things, it felt like I could at least keep pace with other heavy hitters. I was hardly the best at it, but it felt good to play. When I have time to play more I'd like to return to the job again, but it's disheartening to me to see the job in its current state.

Jobs that demand more out of a player should be able to post solid results when played well. If they struggle to do this, all that complexity means nothing. MMOs are about numbers in the end, and complexity (or lack thereof) are all in service to the numbers when it comes down to it.

[UfoCoffee]

I play NIN as i like the challenge, but i enjoy rewarding and enjoyable challenges. Not badly designed ones.

[Kolsykol]

I am personally looking forward to seeing what they do at least.
I just came back to the game and am thinking of maining something different this time perhaps ( instead of BLM ), and I've set my sights on Sam or Nin.
Overall I really do like Nin, my only issue with it is mudras feeling a bit clunky at times.
I'd probably say that it's mostly when you have to do 3 mudras tho, that's when it's felt the most imo.
Ten Chi Jin also feels clunky I think, like maybe when you popped it then it could just turn your combo string into the Ninjutsu and then depending on which one you use the first you'll get the same sequences.

I don't dislike the mudras as they are, but I do think that they have this feeling of slowing down everything and that they're sometimes susceptible to not weave in like they should.
The problem is that I don't think that any other job really has to deal with something similar which makes it feel odd.
And I sorta feel afraid at times to do that last mudra too quickly because if my connection is somewhat off I am running the risk of bunnying.
Sometimes I feel as if my click just doesn't register.

I dunno tho, I kinda want to play Nin but atm Sam feels more smooth to me and it's mainly because of the mudras.
I'll see what they do, if they overhaul them and make them more smooth I'll go Nin otherwise I'll probably go Sam.