Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Katie_Kitty]

Ignoring the hyperbole of "guaranteeing" a lack of expansion to RDM's melee, since expanding any other melee (including NIN and SAM who are the closest we have to Spellblades now) has no bearing on RDM's own kit or balance:

I don't see the problem with that. Every GCD we spend performing melee skills is built by anywhere from 2-8 GCDs spent casting, yet there are more requests for new melee skills or Mana spenders than there are for ways to generate Mana quickly to shorten our casting time.
I don't see a need for a Magic Ranged DPS job with "Mage" in the name, with a spellcaster's stats and survivability, and a repertoire largely of spells, to spend more time locked into melee range or see much more expansion of its melee abilities, at least not before its spellcasting abilities so we can spend more time meleeing.
Give players who want to live the Spellblade fantasy the option to live that out, and leave RDM for players who prefer the mixed-caster fantasy of RDM. Let players play what they want to play, don't hold the Spellblades ransom to RDM.

Also worth mentioning, there is hardly any discussion of how Spellblade would even work, yet you're already declaring it would step on RDM's toes? Spellblade, Mystic Knight and Rune Fencer are different enough jobs from RDM that there are plenty of skills and abilities that could be given to them that have nothing to do with RDM. We have no job capable of casting En-spells, FF13 gave us a whole host of elemental strike skills, FF15 gave us Warp Strikes, and there are plenty of ways to expand on a melee job that don't involve giving them a Mana gauge.
We're no more the sole owners of sword magic than WHM is the owner of healing magic.

If the game didn't force you to use its melee combo to gain access to your strongest spells, then RDM in FFXIV would be a pure caster with no reason for ever using melee abilities. It's barely a red mage at all at that point and its melee abilities should absolutely be expanded upon.

[Archwizard]

If the game didn't force you to use its melee combo to gain access to your strongest spells, then RDM in FFXIV would be a pure caster with no reason for ever using melee abilities. It's barely a red mage at all at that point and its melee abilities should absolutely be expanded upon.

I mean, yes. A lot of jobs would rather fall apart if you didn't do their proper rotations. Dragoon would hardly be a Dragoon if you ignored its rotation and just spammed the ranged attacks. RDM isn't special there.
Personally all I need in a Red Mage is the mixing of Black and White Magic. The mixing of melee is cute, but it was rarely something the Red Mage could capitalize on, while Chaincast effects gave Red Mage a real niche.
I wasn't suggesting taking the melee portion away from RDM. To the contrary I said there are abilities untouched by Red Mage that could be taken by any other job. Are we going to block all future melee job suggestions, or at least the ones with spellcasting, until RDM gets more melee skills? We both know that would be ludicrous if it were any job other than Spellblade, but if the two jobs have always been distinct in the past, why argue similarity here?

Tell ya what, I'll engage with that line of thinking for a bit.
Your goal is a more significant contribution to RDM's damage from melee.

Presently we spend about 40 seconds-ish building up to the melee combo (without Manafication), give or take whatever amount of Reprises we cast. As our spells generate more Mana (such as, say, adding Scorch), the time to build the combo goes down while the combo itself retains its static cost, thereby increasing our time in melee.
However, each additional Enchanted melee skill comes with a Mana cost.

First thing's first: what is the ratio you're looking for, of casting to melee? Is it 80/20? 60/40?
I surely hope not 50/50, we'd practically spend the entire fight at point-blank. Last week my level 70 Dragoon had more HP than my RDM has at 80, and its survival tools are free oGCDs -- half the reason we only spend 10 seconds a minute in melee is because we're just so damn squishy.

What's the gameplay loop you intend for RDM with that higher ratio? Surely if you're arguing that the addition of an unrelated melee job will impede RDM's progress, you must have some ideas in mind of how they'd specifically work.
Will there be branching combos? How would these changes affect the Mana economy? Or do you just want to redo the entirety of Mana altogether -- in which case, why not just make another job?

How much of what you're saying is specific and structured criticism, versus nebulous and irrational fear-mongering?

[Jkap_Goat]

I would rather have mystic knight than a chemist, please no chemist

[Duelle]

Since you're going with dual-wielding swords, you might as well go all the way with the FF5 references and name the Ultima Blade mode "Spellblade Barrage" and turn it into a machinist-esque heat mode with lower recast times to go with the OCD reset.

Being able to activate the mode before 100% is also essential. It's probably tempting to have a "super god mode" but that doesn't mesh well with party buffs and variable encounter designs that won't let you use it ASAP.

Since you mention MCH, I'm assuming this includes a resource that requires a non-max amount to activate the super mode. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as the MCH super mode has a relatively short duration from what I've seen. Then again, given how some fights are designed with phases where you can't target the boss, a long-duration mode might not be ideal.

Everytime i read these threads hoping for genuine discussions and ideas fleshing out what someone has come up with and was brave enough to put out here for all of us to see. And everytime its just people shitting on even the notion of the idea because (insert something irrelevant here).

Expressing disagreement in a civil manner (which is what I've seen in this thread so far) is not shitting on someone's idea. I'd even venture to say the OP has a good starting point.

Don’t let the “something something RDM” crowd get you down

In light of how RDM was implemented and the current issues surrounding it, that it would be brought up in a mystic knight discussion is inevitable (just like how certain individuals love bringing up mystic knight when the topic of RDM and melee come up). Differentiating the two without allowing one to be tossed to the curb or usurped is pretty damn important. And it is entirely possible for both jobs to coexist even after addressing the issues with RDM's implementation (read: more melee uptime is not going to make mystic knight impossible to implement).

I mean, yes. A lot of jobs would rather fall apart if you didn't do their proper rotations. Dragoon would hardly be a Dragoon if you ignored its rotation and just spammed the ranged attacks. RDM isn't special there.

Nothing in Dragoon's rotation involves Piercing Talon. None of the combos lead to it, and none of its secondary systems (Blood of the Dragon) interact with it.

By comparison, the bulk of RDM's gameplay is spamming spells and in such a design the melee combo is tacked on (as I've argued since this job was implemented). If you were to replace the melee combo with two spells that consume the mana bars to get access to Verflare/Verholy/Scorch, you wouldn't see much change in the gameplay aside from Corps and Displacement not being needed anymore. As Katie said, however, the job is barely a RDM at that point.

Personally all I need in a Red Mage is the mixing of Black and White Magic.

The sword is pretty important to RDM and not something to treat as a decoration. Without it you have just a Sage dressed in red.

[SaberMaxwell]

Look man I just wanna swing a sword and cast a spell. I didn't pick DPS to be the emergency medical personnel on site, I picked it to kick people's knees in. With magic. And swords.

Red Mage for me is an annoyance because right now it's my Spellblade fantasy vs someone else's "hybrid role" fantasy. Give me Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer, and I will abandon Red Mage almost immediately. How's that for an anecdote. Then I can stop caring about all this "but Red Mage is supposed to be strong at raising, it's the job's *identity*" rhetoric.

[Archwizard]

By comparison, the bulk of RDM's gameplay is spamming spells and in such a design the melee combo is tacked on (as I've argued since this job was implemented). If you were to replace the melee combo with two spells that consume the mana bars to get access to Verflare/Verholy/Scorch, you wouldn't see much change in the gameplay aside from Corps and Displacement not being needed anymore. As Katie said, however, the job is barely a RDM at that point.
The sword is pretty important to RDM and not something to treat as a decoration. Without it you have just a Sage dressed in red.

Aren't you the same guy who proposed turning RDM into a full melee job by locking Dualcast behind a melee combo? Where magic would be "tacked on" as a result?

So either RDM "isn't Red Mage" and is "just a Sage in red with melee tacked on" (surprise, melee was always "tacked on") until it subsumes all concepts of a Spellblade as well, or RDM gains more branching melee and is a Spellblade in all but name but is no more a mage than NIN, DRK or PLD.

There's a no-win scenario for Red Mage here.

[Wayfinder3]

Look man I just wanna swing a sword and cast a spell. I didn't pick DPS to be the emergency medical personnel on site, I picked it to kick people's knees in. With magic. And swords.

Red Mage for me is an annoyance because right now it's my Spellblade fantasy vs someone else's "hybrid role" fantasy. Give me Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer, and I will abandon Red Mage almost immediately. How's that for an anecdote. Then I can stop caring about all this "but Red Mage is supposed to be strong at raising, it's the job's *identity*" rhetoric.

This, idc about a hat with a feather and red clothing(especially since every generic piece of caster gear we get is made with BLM in mind as what fencer would wear robes into combat) RDM really shouldn't be a caster, but i doubt making them a melee is a smart move, and the devs don't likely know what a hybrid means. so we ended up with a 2.0 BLM clone that sometimes becomes a melee dps. I honestly wish they added a new role that would fit jobs that in theory could excel in combat from multiple places. RDM would fit very well here and you could stretch it for Dragoon too. I honestly find RDM and DRG to be more alike in conception than RDM and BLM. Holy trinity poisons this type of diversity sadly

[Katie_Kitty]

always[/I] "tacked on") until it subsumes all concepts of a Spellblade as well, or RDM gains more branching melee and is a Spellblade in all but name but is no more a mage than NIN, DRK or PLD.

There's a no-win scenario for Red Mage here.

False dichotomy. You absolutely can expand upon the job's melee abilities without it suddenly becoming "no more a mage than NIN, DRK, or PLD."

[Jkap_Goat]

Runefencer (RUN) would have been nice

[Archwizard]

False dichotomy. You absolutely can expand upon the job's melee abilities without it suddenly becoming "no more a mage than NIN, DRK, or PLD."

First, read my full post, I was speaking with regards to his "suggestion" I mentioned.

Second, your argument throughout this thread has been "Red Mage isn't a Red Mage until it's also a Spellblade." "An apple isn't an apple until it's also an orange" is an insane stretch, but hey, go off about false dichotomy.

Third, I was seriously asking before:

Are we going to block all future melee job suggestions, or at least the ones with spellcasting, until RDM gets more melee skills? We both know that would be ludicrous if it were any job other than Spellblade, but if the two jobs have always been distinct in the past, why argue similarity here?

What is the ratio you're looking for, of casting to melee?

What's the gameplay loop you intend for RDM with that higher ratio? Will there be branching combos? How would these changes affect the Mana economy? Or do you just want to redo the entirety of Mana altogether -- in which case, why not just make another job?

How much of what you're saying is specific and structured criticism, versus nebulous and irrational fear-mongering?