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  1. #1
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510 View Post
    Since you're going with dual-wielding swords, you might as well go all the way with the FF5 references and name the Ultima Blade mode "Spellblade Barrage" and turn it into a machinist-esque heat mode with lower recast times to go with the OCD reset.

    Being able to activate the mode before 100% is also essential. It's probably tempting to have a "super god mode" but that doesn't mesh well with party buffs and variable encounter designs that won't let you use it ASAP.
    Since you mention MCH, I'm assuming this includes a resource that requires a non-max amount to activate the super mode. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as the MCH super mode has a relatively short duration from what I've seen. Then again, given how some fights are designed with phases where you can't target the boss, a long-duration mode might not be ideal.
    Quote Originally Posted by odym82 View Post
    Everytime i read these threads hoping for genuine discussions and ideas fleshing out what someone has come up with and was brave enough to put out here for all of us to see. And everytime its just people shitting on even the notion of the idea because (insert something irrelevant here).
    Expressing disagreement in a civil manner (which is what I've seen in this thread so far) is not shitting on someone's idea. I'd even venture to say the OP has a good starting point.
    Don’t let the “something something RDM” crowd get you down
    In light of how RDM was implemented and the current issues surrounding it, that it would be brought up in a mystic knight discussion is inevitable (just like how certain individuals love bringing up mystic knight when the topic of RDM and melee come up). Differentiating the two without allowing one to be tossed to the curb or usurped is pretty damn important. And it is entirely possible for both jobs to coexist even after addressing the issues with RDM's implementation (read: more melee uptime is not going to make mystic knight impossible to implement).
    Quote Originally Posted by Archwizard View Post
    I mean, yes. A lot of jobs would rather fall apart if you didn't do their proper rotations. Dragoon would hardly be a Dragoon if you ignored its rotation and just spammed the ranged attacks. RDM isn't special there.
    Nothing in Dragoon's rotation involves Piercing Talon. None of the combos lead to it, and none of its secondary systems (Blood of the Dragon) interact with it.

    By comparison, the bulk of RDM's gameplay is spamming spells and in such a design the melee combo is tacked on (as I've argued since this job was implemented). If you were to replace the melee combo with two spells that consume the mana bars to get access to Verflare/Verholy/Scorch, you wouldn't see much change in the gameplay aside from Corps and Displacement not being needed anymore. As Katie said, however, the job is barely a RDM at that point.
    Personally all I need in a Red Mage is the mixing of Black and White Magic.
    The sword is pretty important to RDM and not something to treat as a decoration. Without it you have just a Sage dressed in red.
    (1)
    Last edited by Duelle; 09-18-2019 at 11:20 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  2. #2
    Player
    Archwizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    A café at the edge of the universe
    Posts
    1,130
    Character
    Archwizard Drake
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    By comparison, the bulk of RDM's gameplay is spamming spells and in such a design the melee combo is tacked on (as I've argued since this job was implemented). If you were to replace the melee combo with two spells that consume the mana bars to get access to Verflare/Verholy/Scorch, you wouldn't see much change in the gameplay aside from Corps and Displacement not being needed anymore. As Katie said, however, the job is barely a RDM at that point.
    The sword is pretty important to RDM and not something to treat as a decoration. Without it you have just a Sage dressed in red.
    Aren't you the same guy who proposed turning RDM into a full melee job by locking Dualcast behind a melee combo? Where magic would be "tacked on" as a result?

    So either RDM "isn't Red Mage" and is "just a Sage in red with melee tacked on" (surprise, melee was always "tacked on") until it subsumes all concepts of a Spellblade as well, or RDM gains more branching melee and is a Spellblade in all but name but is no more a mage than NIN, DRK or PLD.

    There's a no-win scenario for Red Mage here.
    (2)
    Last edited by Archwizard; 09-19-2019 at 06:11 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Archwizard View Post
    Aren't you the same guy who proposed turning RDM into a full melee job by locking Dualcast behind a melee combo? Where magic would be "tacked on" as a result?
    I assume you're referring to the post I made about various ways to implement hybrids, which was written to convey some general ideas. If that's the case then you either misread or did not read the write up I linked you the last time we spoke. I suggest giving it another look (the URL is in my sig), as Dualcast is there and still proccing off spells. There's even a section in the write-up explaining how that interacts with the other mechanics I gave the job.
    So either RDM "isn't Red Mage" and is "just a Sage in red with melee tacked on" (surprise, melee was always "tacked on") until it subsumes all concepts of a Spellblade as well
    Now you're being hyperbolic. If RDM is "guy that uses sword skills and spells in tandem" (again, see the writeup in my sig), then it stands to reason that Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer could get something like prolonged sword enchants or combo effects that yield sword enchants as well as systems that deal in sword enchants (like the systems suggested by the OP). I mean if we're being serious about designing Mystic Knight, the rules that pop in my mind are:

    a) it's entirely melee-focused aside from the mandatory ranged skill like Piercing Talon and Knife Throw. Which means it won't be slinging spells and instead rely entirely on their magical sword(s) to deal damage
    b) it won't offer utility along the lines of healing or rezzes.
    RDM gains more branching melee and is a Spellblade in all but name but is no more a mage than NIN, DRK or PLD.
    Last I checked, NIN, DRK and PLD can't rez. PLD blows a big chunk of their MP pool to heal. DRK and PLD lack notable ranged options given that the former has nothing other than Unmend and (technically) Salted Earth, and the latter blows a big chunk of their MP on Holy Spirit (assuming full MP, you get 5 at most and go OOM). NIN's magic options are gated behind either the Ninjutsu cooldown or behind spending Ninki to use (assuming we count Hellfrog Medium). There's very little in terms of a comparison between those jobs and RDM.

    Put simply, I don't understand how giving the original hybrid of the Final Fantasy series more melee uptime can be so egregious.
    (1)
    Last edited by Duelle; 09-19-2019 at 07:26 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

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