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  1. #1
    Player
    Archwizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    A café at the edge of the universe
    Posts
    1,130
    Character
    Archwizard Drake
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty View Post
    It wouldn't compete for raid spots with Red Mage but what it would do is guarantee that RDM's melee abilities will never be expanded upon. It would also be far stronger overall and steal players away from RDM who want a spellsword type class.
    Ignoring the hyperbole of "guaranteeing" a lack of expansion to RDM's melee, since expanding any other melee (including NIN and SAM who are the closest we have to Spellblades now) has no bearing on RDM's own kit or balance:

    I don't see the problem with that. Every GCD we spend performing melee skills is built by anywhere from 2-8 GCDs spent casting, yet there are more requests for new melee skills or Mana spenders than there are for ways to generate Mana quickly to shorten our casting time.
    I don't see a need for a Magic Ranged DPS job with "Mage" in the name, with a spellcaster's stats and survivability, and a repertoire largely of spells, to spend more time locked into melee range or see much more expansion of its melee abilities, at least not before its spellcasting abilities so we can spend more time meleeing.
    Give players who want to live the Spellblade fantasy the option to live that out, and leave RDM for players who prefer the mixed-caster fantasy of RDM. Let players play what they want to play, don't hold the Spellblades ransom to RDM.

    Also worth mentioning, there is hardly any discussion of how Spellblade would even work, yet you're already declaring it would step on RDM's toes? Spellblade, Mystic Knight and Rune Fencer are different enough jobs from RDM that there are plenty of skills and abilities that could be given to them that have nothing to do with RDM. We have no job capable of casting En-spells, FF13 gave us a whole host of elemental strike skills, FF15 gave us Warp Strikes, and there are plenty of ways to expand on a melee job that don't involve giving them a Mana gauge.
    We're no more the sole owners of sword magic than WHM is the owner of healing magic.

    Paired up with the curse of verraise, RDM risks becoming essentially a dead job.
    Funny. I was having a chat with a friend about that last night, and it was pointed out to me that the Verraise tax was hardly a consideration towards the end of Stormblood, and a large part of the discussion around the Verraise tax cropped up when Shadowbringers launch made clear that BLM was overpowered.

    Have we had recent dev confirmation that RDM is so undertuned right now because of Verraise? 'Cuz our damage was just as bad at the start of Shadowbringers before our casting costs were adjusted when we could barely squeeze out 2 Verraises a fight, and we were still behind SMN in utility.
    I'd wait for 5.1 before discussing if Verraise is still a 'curse', versus balance having a few oversights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    I'm in for most class ideas, really.

    But if any job gets Ultima or Ultima-esque abilities before Black Mage does then I will RIOT.
    Bold of you to assume anyone will get Ultima within the lifespan of 14.
    (0)
    Last edited by Archwizard; 09-18-2019 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,697
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    I got my hopes with Lv.100, if not Lv.90, that BLM could get it. So yeah.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Katie_Kitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    952
    Character
    Princess Whiskers
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Archwizard View Post
    Ignoring the hyperbole of "guaranteeing" a lack of expansion to RDM's melee, since expanding any other melee (including NIN and SAM who are the closest we have to Spellblades now) has no bearing on RDM's own kit or balance:

    I don't see the problem with that. Every GCD we spend performing melee skills is built by anywhere from 2-8 GCDs spent casting, yet there are more requests for new melee skills or Mana spenders than there are for ways to generate Mana quickly to shorten our casting time.
    I don't see a need for a Magic Ranged DPS job with "Mage" in the name, with a spellcaster's stats and survivability, and a repertoire largely of spells, to spend more time locked into melee range or see much more expansion of its melee abilities, at least not before its spellcasting abilities so we can spend more time meleeing.
    Give players who want to live the Spellblade fantasy the option to live that out, and leave RDM for players who prefer the mixed-caster fantasy of RDM. Let players play what they want to play, don't hold the Spellblades ransom to RDM.

    Also worth mentioning, there is hardly any discussion of how Spellblade would even work, yet you're already declaring it would step on RDM's toes? Spellblade, Mystic Knight and Rune Fencer are different enough jobs from RDM that there are plenty of skills and abilities that could be given to them that have nothing to do with RDM. We have no job capable of casting En-spells, FF13 gave us a whole host of elemental strike skills, FF15 gave us Warp Strikes, and there are plenty of ways to expand on a melee job that don't involve giving them a Mana gauge.
    We're no more the sole owners of sword magic than WHM is the owner of healing magic.
    If the game didn't force you to use its melee combo to gain access to your strongest spells, then RDM in FFXIV would be a pure caster with no reason for ever using melee abilities. It's barely a red mage at all at that point and its melee abilities should absolutely be expanded upon.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    Archwizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    A café at the edge of the universe
    Posts
    1,130
    Character
    Archwizard Drake
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty View Post
    If the game didn't force you to use its melee combo to gain access to your strongest spells, then RDM in FFXIV would be a pure caster with no reason for ever using melee abilities. It's barely a red mage at all at that point and its melee abilities should absolutely be expanded upon.
    I mean, yes. A lot of jobs would rather fall apart if you didn't do their proper rotations. Dragoon would hardly be a Dragoon if you ignored its rotation and just spammed the ranged attacks. RDM isn't special there.
    Personally all I need in a Red Mage is the mixing of Black and White Magic. The mixing of melee is cute, but it was rarely something the Red Mage could capitalize on, while Chaincast effects gave Red Mage a real niche.
    I wasn't suggesting taking the melee portion away from RDM. To the contrary I said there are abilities untouched by Red Mage that could be taken by any other job. Are we going to block all future melee job suggestions, or at least the ones with spellcasting, until RDM gets more melee skills? We both know that would be ludicrous if it were any job other than Spellblade, but if the two jobs have always been distinct in the past, why argue similarity here?

    Tell ya what, I'll engage with that line of thinking for a bit.
    Your goal is a more significant contribution to RDM's damage from melee.

    Presently we spend about 40 seconds-ish building up to the melee combo (without Manafication), give or take whatever amount of Reprises we cast. As our spells generate more Mana (such as, say, adding Scorch), the time to build the combo goes down while the combo itself retains its static cost, thereby increasing our time in melee.
    However, each additional Enchanted melee skill comes with a Mana cost.

    First thing's first: what is the ratio you're looking for, of casting to melee? Is it 80/20? 60/40?
    I surely hope not 50/50, we'd practically spend the entire fight at point-blank. Last week my level 70 Dragoon had more HP than my RDM has at 80, and its survival tools are free oGCDs -- half the reason we only spend 10 seconds a minute in melee is because we're just so damn squishy.

    What's the gameplay loop you intend for RDM with that higher ratio? Surely if you're arguing that the addition of an unrelated melee job will impede RDM's progress, you must have some ideas in mind of how they'd specifically work.
    Will there be branching combos? How would these changes affect the Mana economy? Or do you just want to redo the entirety of Mana altogether -- in which case, why not just make another job?

    How much of what you're saying is specific and structured criticism, versus nebulous and irrational fear-mongering?
    (2)
    Last edited by Archwizard; 09-19-2019 at 05:02 AM. Reason: Typo

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