If you are going to do a Live Letter

[Yshnal]

You know that some of the developers understand English, yes? Yoshida may not speak in English, but he can understand it. Foxclon understands it. SE has translators in its employ - but it’s “too much” for us to ask that they allocate some of those translators to service PLL translations that they are broadcasting to their global audience? We get these translators during Fanfests and Expansion PLLs - But we aren’t allowed them for Patch PLLs?

Your last bit is a strawman. English is a universal language. Compare that to any other language - even Japanese. They aren’t universal; English is.

Just because he understands english that doesn't mean that he's fluent enough to talk on a LL. And that's especially true when you know that japanese don't like to do it unless their english is perfect. On top of that they most probably felt that it would have been unpolite towards the japanese audience there. You would know if you weren't so close-minded and self-important. The world doesn't revolve around you (general "you"). There's other cultures, and life circumstances related to that, that you should respect. You'll get the same information eventually, once they translate it, so what's the matter? That you have to wait for it once per year? You can literally wait without it being an actual inconvenience for you, unlike the audience that was there.

About the "strawman", it was an example to show you how ridiculous this is. English may be the lingua franca nowadays, but you can't expect everyone to learn or use it. Is it nice if they do? Yes. But no one should be forced to use it, and much less on a local event with live constraints (read previous posts) preventing them to properly offer a free translation like they always do otherwise.

You cant compare english, a rly easy, worldwide spoken language to japanese... and where did i say they have to learn english?

And neither you can blame me, or any of us for the japanese style of work. If they'd close every other weekend or a patch is delayed a week so they have a vacation before its out few would complaine - i sure would not. Oh and just for you, i gotta add that im on twice the vacation of most my coworkers due how rarely i take days off.

Again you pretent its "extra work" but its not. They still got their stuff prepared and just hand it to the translators... the ones having actually more work or rather earlier are our Community guys...



Non english speaking is a joke on itself, for example most of europe has english in schools, at least SOME basic understanding should be there, even more now in the internet age. Its a language that links most of the world... as much as i love japanese and regret not learning it, its not exactly the most easy language out there...

What I wrote to HyoMinPark also applies to you. Not to mention that you clearly have no idea about how these things works. While the LL is scripted, they don't memorize nor read what they say, so you'll lose all the little tibdits that they mention quite often anyway. What's the matter with waiting for them to post the translated LL summary just this once? Aren't they offering a live translation on every other LL?

Really, I'm the first one to criticise SE (and I hate many things that they do), but there's no reason to do it now. You're being unreasonable, and unwilling to see why they didn't offer the usual live translation this time. This is the key point here. This was a special case, and they did the right thing.

Also, no, while most european children learn english at school, you would be surprised by the amount of them that have literally no clue about properly speaking in or understanding spoken english once they grow up. Because most of them don't use it on their daily lives, and they don't get the required practice and even forget it.

[HyoMinPark]

Just because he understands english that doesn't mean that he's fluent enough to talk on a LL. And that's especially true when you know that japanese don't like to do it unless their english is perfect.

I’ve met plenty of Japanese exchange students that speak in English with us even if it isn’t perfect. Foxclon still communicates in English sometimes on the streams—I recall during the ShB pre-expansion PLLs where he used quite a bit of English during the sound and video fiasco they were having. So I don’t know how much weight that comment really holds.

On top of that they most probably felt that it would have been unpolite towards the japanese audience there. You would know if you weren't so close-minded and self-important. The world doesn't revolve around you (general "you"). There's other cultures, and life circumstances related to that, that you should respect.

I certainly hope you aren’t prefacing your arguments with calling me close-minded and self-important—since I don’t see your “general ‘you’” disclaimer included with that statement. Uncalled for ad hominem is not how you lead a productive discussion. Look no further than the derailment between Zanarkand-Ronso and other posters: people ignored what they had to say all because they chose to “call out” another poster as being a “self-important American”. Said poster wasn’t even an American, so their generalization had no basis to even stand on—aside from the fact that it was irrelevant to the discussion and completely uncalled for; your comments about how “close-minded and self-important” I am are similar in nature.

All that said...

You do realize that real-time translations can occur without a translator being on the scene, yes? The PLL was already being streamed to FFXIV’s global audiences—a translator could be embedded into the stream from a separate location and still translate in real-time. They don’t always have to be face-to-face with those that they are translating for or interpreting for. With technology the way it is, they could be across the globe performing this. This solves two major issues: your concern with the experience being hampered by an on-site English translator, and the global market’s desire for information to be given to them in a language they can understand.

You demand for us to respect their circumstances, but you don’t expect them to respect ours? Like how we don’t understand their language? Like how we also pay to play this game, and would love to receive information in a far more timely manner directly from the source as opposed to relying on third parties? Isn’t that a bit of a double standard you’re defending here?

You'll get the same information eventually, once they translate it, so what's the matter? That you have to wait for it once per year? You can literally wait without it being an actual inconvenience for you, unlike the audience that was there.

Wait once a year? How many PLLs do you think the developers do? They do at least two per new patch—generally split into a “Part 1” and “Part 2”. With patch cycles generally being slightly over 3 months in length, that means we usually see 2 or 3 patches a year. Meaning 4 to 6 PLLs. The number is actually a bit higher, since sometimes in-between patches will have PLLs associated with them. Only Fanfests and Expansion PLLs tend to have real-time translators—the rest we have to rely on third parties; or we wait and twiddle our thumbs until they release a Digest a couple weeks later because not everyone is aware that some sites (like FFXIV’s Subreddit) do fan translations. But it doesn’t have to be this way.

People are allowed to request that a global company provide its global audience with more readily accessible news with regards to PLLs and Patch content—and even the additional “fluff” stuff, like the interaction with Yoshida and Yoko Taro. Just because you’re of the opinion that that makes us “close-minded” and “self-important” doesn’t make it so.

About the "strawman", it was an example to show you how ridiculous this is. English may be the lingua franca nowadays, but you can't expect everyone to learn or use it. Is it nice if they do? Yes. But no one should be forced to use it, and much less on a local event with live constraints (read previous posts) preventing them to properly offer a free translation like they always do otherwise.

You say this request is ridiculous, but I disagree. I don’t think it’s outside of the realm of possibility, nor do I think it’s a crime for asking that more PLLs include translations in real-time.

They are saying that you are wrong. And you are. English is definitly not as "worldwide" and easy as you think.
It's a common misconception that got carried from the fact that english is the default language used in international trading. But we're not in that context here.

English is a business language. With regards to MMOs and marketing future content, we are very much within the applicable context here.

[Yshnal]

I’ve met plenty of Japanese exchange students that speak in English with us even if it isn’t perfect. Foxclon still communicates in English sometimes on the streams—I recall during the ShB pre-expansion PLLs where he used quite a bit of English during the sound and video fiasco they were having. So I don’t know how much weight that comment really holds.

Japanese exchange students are an obvious exception, mostly because they want to practice their english. The same thing can be said about the japanese that go to places where foreigners meet up in japan. You can even find japanese people on the street replying to you in english, be it due to that reason or because they want to be polite. In regards to Foxclon, one thing is to use a bit of english out of need, and another one is making the whole LL using it. And much less on a live japanese event with a japanese crowd waiting in front of you.

I certainly hope you aren’t prefacing your arguments with calling me close-minded and self-important—since I don’t see your “general ‘you’” disclaimer included with that statement. Uncalled for ad hominem is not how you lead a productive discussion. Look no further than the derailment between Zanarkand-Ronso and other posters: people ignored what they had to say all because they chose to “call out” another poster as being a “self-important American”. Said poster wasn’t even an American, so their generalization had no basis to even stand on—aside from the fact that it was irrelevant to the discussion and completely uncalled for; your comments about how “close-minded and self-important” I am are similar in nature.

I was talking in general all the time, even though you seem to insist on proving my point. Regardless, I should have clarified it earlier I guess. We're living in the "perpetually offended" culture nowadays, after all. Also, there's more subtle ways to attack someone's opinion, which you all seem to insist on using. But talking about that will take us nowhere, so I can just apologise and close this.

You do realize that real-time translations can occur without a translator being on the scene, yes? The PLL was already being streamed to FFXIV’s global audiences—a translator could be embedded into the stream from a separate location and still translate in real-time. They don’t always have to be face-to-face with those that they are translating for or interpreting for. With technology the way it is, they could be across the globe performing this. This solves two major issues: your concern with the experience being hampered by an on-site English translator, and the global market’s desire for information to be given to them in a language they can understand.

You demand for us to respect their circumstances, but you don’t expect them to respect ours? Like how we don’t understand their language? Like how we also pay to play this game, and would love to receive information in a far more timely manner directly from the source as opposed to relying on third parties? Isn’t that a bit of a double standard you’re defending here?

Did you even watch the LL? There's no way that a translator (nor a full team of them) can translate the 4-way conversation that they were having most of the time. At least not in a proper way. Japanese is not english, nor even similar to it, and it's really hard to be able to translate it live without missing more than half of the stuff that they keep talking about while you do it (that's why they always wait for their translator when they do it live, and why it looks way more scripted than when they don't do it). And before someone says it again: the LL is scripted, but just to a point. All they can do is making a summary beforehand... like the slideshow that they showed us during the first part of the LL (which had plenty of english).

Wait once a year? How many PLLs do you think the developers do? They do at least two per new patch—generally split into a “Part 1” and “Part 2”. With patch cycles generally being slightly over 3 months in length, that means we usually see 2 or 3 patches a year. Meaning 4 to 6 PLLs. The number is actually a bit higher, since sometimes in-between patches will have PLLs associated with them. Only Fanfests and Expansion PLLs tend to have real-time translators—the rest we have to rely on third parties; or we wait and twiddle our thumbs until they release a Digest a couple weeks later because not everyone is aware that some sites (like FFXIV’s Subreddit) do fan translations. But it doesn’t have to be this way.

Almost every LL done during the year has been translated, even live by either Aimi-san or Koji. Only special events such as this one aren't. So, yes, probably 1 or 2 (if you count the japanese FanFest, which I forgot about).

People are allowed to request that a global company provide its global audience with more readily accessible news with regards to PLLs and Patch content—and even the additional “fluff” stuff, like the interaction with Yoshida and Yoko Taro. Just because you’re of the opinion that that makes us “close-minded” and “self-important” doesn’t make it so.

The only thing that I agree with is with the fact that, even though their translators are not just sitting on their hands waiting for a LL to happen, they shouldn't need several weeks to post the LL digest. The rest, meaning people demanding a live translation on a live japanese event that was even announced as having japanese-only audio, or even some saying that they should just record it beforehand (really? and screw the TGS attendants just because of you? can you see why I said what I said?) is just something that I can't agree with, and I explained why already.

[Jybril]

You would know if you weren't so close-minded and self-important. The world doesn't revolve around you

Why does every time someone expresses their dislikes someone needs to insult them.
You guys are always so mob mentality it's hard to talk sometimes on these forums.
I'm seeing it a lot lately. Perhaps it's time to walk away for a
bit for some of you because goodness me it's bad lately...

[Vahlnir]

Why does every time someone expresses their dislikes someone needs to insult them.
You guys are always so mob mentality it's hard to talk sometimes on these forums.
I'm seeing it a lot lately. Perhaps it's time to walk away for a
bit for some of you because goodness me it's bad lately...

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE FORUM RAGE!

...I kid. Yeah, it might seem like it's happening a lot more lately but honestly? It has been happening in every internet forum since...idk, forever.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Why does every time someone expresses their dislikes someone needs to insult them.
You guys are always so mob mentality it's hard to talk sometimes on these forums.
I'm seeing it a lot lately. Perhaps it's time to walk away for a
bit for some of you because goodness me it's bad lately...

Why is it every time somebody Disagrees and has a Different Opinion a Fight Breaks out?
And then there is a lecture about how its so important to state that you are right to Criticize, as if anybody else can control you?

Like, it seems like Discussion is a bad thing all of a sudden, and people just want to fight so they can Validate their Criticism. Anybody on the opposite end is an opponent to take down, and its just childish. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, wither or not its with the Mob or not. We shouldn't devolve so eagerly and so quickly.

[HyoMinPark]

Why is it every time somebody Disagrees and has a Different Opinion a Fight Breaks out?
And then there is a lecture about how its so important to state that you are right to Criticize, as if anybody else can control you?

Like, it seems like Discussion is a bad thing all of a sudden, and people just want to fight so they can Validate their Criticism. Anybody on the opposite end is an opponent to take down, and its just childish. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, wither or not its with the Mob or not. We shouldn't devolve so eagerly and so quickly.

There’s a vast difference between having a discussion, and someone outright insulting another poster due to disagreeing with them on a point. There's no reason to result to insults or negative generalizations; you and I have already had this discussion in this very thread. You can easily counter points you disagree with without resorting to calling other posters names or using phrases like “close-minded” and “self-important” against them.

The discussion at present isn’t a fight until someone makes it one. Usually by opting to insult and generalize rather than actually address what’s being said. Countering arguments isn’t the same as fighting or trying to “take down” an “opponent”. It’s participating in discourse and debating.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

There’s a vast difference between having a discussion, and someone outright insulting another poster due to disagreeing with them on a point. There's no reason to result to insults or negative generalizations; you and I have already had this discussion in this very thread. You can easily counter points you disagree with without resorting to calling other posters names or using phrases like “close-minded” and “self-important” against them.

The discussion at present isn’t a fight until someone makes it one. Usually by opting to insult and generalize rather than actually address what’s being said. Countering arguments isn’t the same as fighting or trying to “take down” an “opponent”. It’s participating in discourse and debating.

I didn't insult anyone, people got offended by a Generalization.
Conversation could have returned to normal, and about the topic, but people made it about me and a Generalization. They focused on that and wanted to fight about it.

Your right, it wasn't a fight, until people made it one. It wasn't about trying to “take down” an “opponent” until people made it that way.
You say something someone doesn't like, you speak against the Mob, then someone gets upset, and things devolve.

[HyoMinPark]

I didn't insult anyone, people got offended by a Generalization.
Conversation could have returned to normal, and about the topic, but people made it about me and a Generalization. They focused on that and wanted to fight about it.

I wasn’t even talking about your statement, but the statement another poster made to me a few posts up. However, it is telling that your mind immediately jumped to our prior conversation. Your “generalization” was negative and still uncalled for. It was an insult; you were implying that Americans are self-important, which, as another poster explained to you, doesn’t carry positive connotations and is equatable to calling people conceited. It was perceived as rather aggressive by more than just myself—regardless of your “meeting me halfway”, that doesn’t change anything. Interpreting something as aggressive doesn’t equate to being offended, either. I wasn’t offended by your post, but I still found it aggressive; primarily because it was unprovoked—you just made it “because reasons”. I know a lot people are easily offended nowadays, but not everyone is; and calling out a statement as unnecessary doesn’t mean the person doing the calling out is offended by said statement.

Anyways, moving on from this dead horse...

Your right, it wasn't a fight, until people made it one. It wasn't about trying to “take down” an “opponent” until people made it that way.
You say something someone doesn't like, you speak against the Mob, then someone gets upset, and things devolve.

I don’t think most of this discussion was a “fight”. Enough posters are being relatively civil about it. However, there are still those who would rather resort to insults as opposed to discussion. And this doesn’t apply to just this thread—many threads on here end in this nowadays. It only seems to get worse as time goes by. I know this platform hasn’t been the best for discussions—but at least previously you could find some well-reasoned ones. Now, it’s difficult to find even those, I feel.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Anyways, moving on from this dead horse...

Thank You, that would be Lovely.

I don’t think most of this discussion was a “fight”. Enough posters are being relatively civil about it. However, there are still those who would rather resort to insults as opposed to discussion. And this doesn’t apply to just this thread—many threads on here end in this nowadays. It only seems to get worse as time goes by. I know this platform hasn’t been the best for discussions—but at least previously you could find some well-reasoned ones. Now, it’s difficult to find even those, I feel.

Sadly yes. But at least you can say these Forums are Never Boring, and sometimes actually even fun. Some of the topics that come in have fun conversation, or when people are ready to stop fighting or Arguing even for a brief moment it becomes Meme-fest and good fun jokes. And these are the most fun times to be on the forums.
Hopefully we can have more of that.
And even nice Conversations like this.