THM lore makes no sense...

[Conradus]

You know what's coming right? The abolishment of classes and the glory of the jobs!!

Leading to the classless society and the dictatorship of the proletariat!

[Zahak]

Leading to the classless society and the dictatorship of the proletariat!

AMEN! haha

[Coglin]

I knew this, I chose the name because, Druid being a magic-user who worship the earth and such, would make sense as CNJs now have Earth and Wind spells as well as healing spells.

I am curious, where do you get that definition of "Druid"? Is it in game lore I possibly missed some where?

Druid as in, Celtics, Pagans, etc.

Sure they were a Celtic priesthood, but you said you chose the name because " Druid being a magic-user who worship the earth and such"........I asked you where you got that definition you stated, and you gave no answer. I know several Celts and Pagans, and interestingly enogh, none of the are druids, nor have I ever seen any historical proof that they used magic. I asked because I am not familiar with any mention of druid in the game. I was trying to understand if it was something I missed in the in game lore, or if you had just made it up.

[Bowen]

Sure they were a Celtic priesthood, but you said you chose the name because " Druid being a magic-user who worship the earth and such"........I asked you where you got that definition you stated, and you gave no answer. I know several Celts and Pagans, and interestingly enogh, none of the are druids, nor have I ever seen any historical proof that they used magic. I asked because I am not familiar with any mention of druid in the game. I was trying to understand if it was something I missed in the in game lore, or if you had just made it up.

What I am saying was, that Druid would be a name that fits better because:
A. Druids were Priests in the Celt/Pagan religion that worshiped the earth (in a sense.)
B. Druids were also healers.
C. Druids practiced magic back then.
D. The German name for CNJ is indeed, Druid.

Now, there is nothing necisarily in game that mentions Druids in lore in the english version but, Conjurer's are (atleast now) Priests/Sorcerer's who worship the elementals. Conjurer's can also control Wind and Earth spells (Which, in relation to the THM elemental spells, are less 'violent'), Curative, and Enhancement spells (AKA buffs). That's why I think it would fit better.

Sorry for not being so clear on my first post though, I didn't really want to type out all my reasons for this because I was at school at the time. XD

Edit: And though I can not give you any sources about Druids at this time, because I am now preparing to go to bed, I suggest you google Druids/Sorcerers/Celtic Priests/Wickens/etc. . .

[Coglin]

I agree that what druids as a whole are to me in MMOs as a genre definently fits better then CNJ in my eyes as well. Its just the way your other post was, I thought I might have missed something. So I wasn't sure if I missed something in game or if you were going off perception of the names themselves based on MMOs as a whole.

Also, I got to ask, why would I want to google all of those terms? there actually history does not tie into there MMO perception very well.

Oh, and a little off to the side on this one but your letter C."C. Druids practiced magic back then." You know magic doesn't really exist right? Nor did it exist in those historical times either.

Kidding aside, I see what your saying about perception of the meaning of the terms in MMOs as a whole, and tend to agree with you.

[Bowen]

I agree that what druids as a whole are to me in MMOs as a genre definently fits better then CNJ in my eyes as well. Its just the way your other post was, I thought I might have missed something. So I wasn't sure if I missed something in game or if you were going off perception of the names themselves based on MMOs as a whole.

Also, I got to ask, why would I want to google all of those terms? there actually history does not tie into there MMO perception very well.

Oh, and a little off to the side on this one but your letter C."C. Druids practiced magic back then." You know magic doesn't really exist right? Nor did it exist in those historical times either.

Kidding aside, I see what your saying about perception of the meaning of the terms in MMOs as a whole, and tend to agree with you.

Well, there are different kinds of 'magic' really, there is the RPG magic (Fireballs etc. . .), Spiritism (Commune w/ spirits evoking demons and such. These things are said to be practiced by many people in history according to the bible), and then there is the magic that Druids/Sorcerer/Witches/etc practiced, this type was more like Spiritism than anything but, that is not the point.
The point is, from the information I have gathered via books and websites alike, Druids did indeed practice 'magic'. Just not how we people nowadays think of it.

You should always try to learn more, what you might find is interesting.

FYI, I am a Jehovah's Witness (The Chrisitans who come door to door to preach to you) but, we think it's important to learn what other religions believe and compare them to our beliefs. But, this is not important, what we are discussing here is the lore for the Mage classes. IMHO CNJ -> Druid THM -> Warlock for lore reasons. That way the names are still exotic (In a sense, more than WHM or BLM anyway) but, accurate.

[Coglin]

My point is that all definition of magic state of supernatural powers. Not sure where you got your definition of magic, but there is no generally accepted supernatural powers. Yes, I am familiar with Jehovah's witness, thank you.

You assume to much to emply I need to learn from you or about my own heritage, As I am Celtic ( Scottish Alba), , and I grew up with a Wiccan mother. FYI, Its Wiccan not wicken...........

Druids did indeed practice 'magic'. Just not how we people nowadays think of it.

You should always try to learn more, what you might find is interesting.

My point is that you have a romantic albiet incorrect idea of Druids. Very little is known about the ancient druids. They left no written accounts about themselves and the only evidence is a few descriptions left by Greek and Roman authors, and stories created by later medieval Irish writers. While archaeological evidence has been uncovered pertaining to the religious practices of the Iron Age people, "not one single artefact or image has been unearthed that can undoubtedly be connected with the ancient Druids."

[Bowen]

My point is that all definition of magic state of supernatural powers. Not sure where you got your definition of magic, but there is no generally accepted supernatural powers. Yes, I am familiar with Jehovah's witness, thank you.

You assume to much to emply I need to learn from you or about my own heritage, As I am Celtic ( Scottish Alba), , and I grew up with a Wiccan mother. FYI, Its Wiccan not wicken...........

I see, I wasn't trying to emply that you needed to learn from me, not at all.
Oh, interesting, and yeah some people spell it Wiccan some spell it Wicken. It just depends I guess.

As for magic, I do not believe that humans themselves can use magic, instead they call on demons who do acts to make people believe its magic. There is evidence of this in the bible but, this is not a discussion on religion. Though the question if Magic in the sense of humans casting spells is real is denied by science, We DO KNOW for a fact that people in the past have practiced forms of what they called 'magic'.

But, we are getting distracted.
IMO this is how DoM classes -> jobs should be:
Druid(CNJ) -> WHM
Warlock(THM) -> BLM
Evoker(DoM that summons elementals to fight for them)(PS, if they change CNJ's name, it would make this class easier to name.) -> SMN (Summons Avatars to battle. NOT PRIMALS)
Arcanist (Debuff/Buff and Water nuker) -> ????
Tamer (Charms mobs to act as pets) -> BST (Certain charmed mobs can be mounted and used for battle this way.)

And, that would be the five DoM classes to start off with. Would probably add RDM or BLU later once Musketeer is released for DoW.

[Coglin]

People practicing what they "called" or "believed" was magic. I can go with that when you put it that way.

As Thaumaturge means by definition, a performer of miricals, I agree that warlock feels more appropriate. Also in my opinion, warlock fits better as a MMO erm as a whole in my opinion. Pre change, with all the debuffs/dots I thought THM was fine, but now that they are essentially a DD nuker, I agree with you here.

I definently agree that as druids in my experience in MMOs tend to be a class that derives there power from nature, and lore wise have devoted there lives to defending and protecting it. Thus it also feels more accurate to me as a class tittle over CNJ

As far as evoker goes, personlly I prefere elementalist.

For Tamer, I prefere Enchanter.

[Duuude007]

Yeah, a bit of corrections to your claims:

Part of the church of life and death

--only partially true, at least based on the lore that is available.

The actual notes suggest that the Ossuary focuses on the Death side, and the other church known as the Millvaneth Sacrarium, focuses on the Life side. We. Have. No. Proof. that THM guild = Millvaneth, because the lore keeps that church exclusive and secretive.

With that knowledge, your other challenge was that Conjurers do not? ...have nukes to their disposal?

Aero and Stone are powerful nukes, when used properly.

Historically, as in classic Final Fantasy, Black mages (aligned in this game with THM) get only 3 specific aspects of nukes: Lightning, Fire, and Blizzard/Ice. This has been reflected in the rebalance, which I find pretty neat. On the other hand, the other nuke aspects have a mixed bag as to which mage used which element. Ultimately they decided on the most logical class for two of them: CNJ, and they are leaving Water based attacks as a physical-only attack (at least for now).

The only real challenge that they have made to carved-in-stone canon (however literal that may be) with these changes, is the concept that elements are the domain of Conjurers. While they still get nukes, the rebalance shifted part of those to other classes. But truth be told the canon did not go as far to say they control "all" of the elements, so I think it is forgivable as a retcon.