We need an ilvl/gear requirement for leveling dungeons

[SerLuke]

1. Just because I primarily use it to check myself doesn't render me oblivious to how others did. In fact, as a healer, I have to take party performance into account because how much I need to heal impacts my DPS and sometimes overheal.
1a. I provided the numbers in support of observations I made, the same sort of observations people in this very thread have talked about. But because I added a qualitative check of my assessment, having not harassed the players involved or identified them beyond the abstraction of job, I'm "depressing?"
1b. There's a big difference between me putting in the effort to heal while undergeared, and succeeding while still adding substantial dps (more than some overgeared healers I've seen), and a player whose only job is to add damage doing less than a healer, and not even because of gear, after 73 levels worth of time to learn even the basics of a rotation.

2. I'd wager I could have healed an entire party as undergeared as I was in Siren with single pulls. I was not maxed out in that run, I was still far from 100% healing uptime. Don't underestimate how severely undertuned much of this game's incoming damage is; it's why I get bored and did something like this to begin with.

Okay, you go setup a full party for The Sirensong Sea with everyone at i220 gear and let me know how it goes, good luck!

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Okay, you go setup a full party for The Sirensong Sea with everyone at i220 gear and let me know how it goes, good luck!

ilvl 220 average; I had the 270 weapon, 260 chest, and 260 legs, which is a pretty big factor. And sure, I'll get some friends together and let you know what the result is.

[Awful]

ilvl 220 average; I had the 270 weapon, 260 chest, and 260 legs, which is a pretty big factor. And sure, I'll get some friends together and let you know what the result is.

This was from SB but I'll save you the effort, he couldn't do big pulls and didn't use CDs, was a struggle to heal them and wasn't a fun time for anyone since this person didn't understand why they couldn't do the dungeon at their lvl but not the ilvl. They were average ilvl of about 180 something in a dungeon that drops 260 gear we booted him at the first boss since they couldn't hold threat and got hit like a wet noodle this guy had a healer main at 70 which was the max in SB he had zero excuse to not have appropriate gear.

This is what people are talking about when we need an ilvl requirement they're a detriment to their group and if they are kick them it's not out of malice or hatred its the fact of the matter that they chose to do this knowing the consequences if they got something like Sirensong Sea.

[HyoMinPark]

I’m currently in MSQ Roulette with a SMN that has level 50/51 gear... and a level 1 Weathered book as their weapon...

Granted, this is MSQ Roulette.... but the guy has a piece from Dusk Vigil. Meaning he likely went into Dusk Vigil with a level 1 weapon...

I can only imagine how fun that was for his party...

[Gaethan_Tessula]

This is what people are talking about when we need an ilvl requirement they're a detriment to their group and if they are kick them it's not out of malice or hatred its the fact of the matter that they chose to do this knowing the consequences if they got something like Sirensong Sea.

I have, not once, argued that there is no need for ilvl minimums. In my first post in this thread, I said that not having them results in mathematically impossible runs. I brought up my undergeared experience because:

a) it helps define where such should be placed. If I'm an above average healer and could heal at 220, then 230, same as Baelsar's Wall as others have suggested, seems a decent benchmark. Then drastically raise the requirement for Shisui to like 255 and follow a trend of ilvl dropped - 15 for the minimum a la endgame dungeons.

b) it expresses my frustration with how undertuned pre-71 leveling dungeons are, esp on healer. I think this is relevant because it fails to teach the game and lets players get away with being hideously undergeared because there are rarely consequences. Esp for dps. Goes along with my idea that we need set minimums and lower maximums.

These are my points; I didn't come in here to get into debates about parsers or accuse players of being bad people because they refuse to carry fools (far from it). I mentioned that I find lower gear runs more engaging personally, but I never argued everyone ought to be queuing min ilvl.

Yet such distractions seem to be all people want to address me with. The only relevant thing I've seen is that I selfishly slowed some runs down compared to a me in full shire. Which I never denied; I gambled my and others' time that I could satisfactorily heal siren at avg 220 and gear that way instead of grinding content I did not want to do. This time it paid off, I had fun, the other players seemed to have had fun, and therefore I do not regret it.

[Awful]

Snip

Lower ilvl runs are fun for the wrong reasons, while I do agree I'd want more of a challenge but this isn't my idea of challenge it's the wrong kind of challenge like holding someone's hand while you guide them through the dungeon (especially if they're a tank or healer). I don't like hand holding I feel that by lvl 50 you should have an idea of your Buffs/AoE rotation/Single target rotation/stand out of the bad that is what we call the bare minimum, they should also be adequately geared for said duty, should they be like full 270 for Sirensong? No, but it helps.

I get that you have fun but at other people's expense I can't really agree, I do like that you want to better yourself but then I look at the other people who are the opposite of you that just want a free ride and it's those kinda players that make the game harder when they could have avoided it.

[SturmChurro]

holding someone's hand while you guide them through the dungeon (especially if they're a tank or healer). I don't like hand holding I feel that by lvl 50 you should have an idea of your Buffs/AoE rotation/Single target rotation/stand out of the bad that is what we call the bare minimum, they should also be adequately geared for said duty, should they be like full 270 for Sirensong? No, but it helps.

I get that you have fun but at other people's expense I can't really agree, I do like that you want to better yourself but then I look at the other people who are the opposite of you that just want a free ride and it's those kinda players that make the game harder when they could have avoided it.

Yeah, I agree. I hate these kind of players. They put little to no effort, and expect others to complete content for them, at the expense of the rest of the rest of the party. They aren't worth having. If they are a new player struggling sure, but there are way too many who just want a free ride, and expect to be hand held.

Not calling these players out, or not kicking them even when it's a big detriment just enables them to keep doing it in other parties.

[LalaRu]

I mean, are you serious?

What's wrong with someone personally wanting to improve themselves through Duty Finder?

Nothing wrong for yourself, but you need be aware of much delusion if you expect others be as you.

[Driavna]

I want to point out, at least IMO, problems with the minimum Ilvl requirement.

- NQ vs HQ. For example, during the whole ShB augmented scaevan gear is much better than any NQ piece.

- The importance of the left side over the right side. A tank still using 270 left side but with up to date right side is not fun to play/heal past Bardam's Mettle.

- Inconsistences with the gear scaling. NQ Birch Longbow lag behind 4 damage points compared to augmented ironwork (53 vs 57). In this case, you are better off keeping augmented ironwork, yet the rest of the left side pieces are, in general, better. Something similar happens with augmented shire vs NQ zelkova longbow (84 vs 81).

- HQ gear from the markerboard can be quite expensive. With the current levelling speed is hard to justify.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, the current problem should be fixed and I encourage people to kick any player that is unreasonable undergeared for the content at hand. If you ask me the only expansion that the full augmented set won't last till the end is SB. Once you hit 66 all your left side should be up to date, even then you can keep right side and weapon. Is the expansion with the bigger stat jump, in contrast, HW can be clear with any major problem as long as the tank pulls at a reasonable pace.

Edit: don't be lazy and acquire all the augmented ironworks, shire and scavean. There is zero justification for not having it, in special scavean.

[Alleo]

I don't have much gil, because a lot of the ways to accumulate it, even passive ones like retainers, I just hate doing. Hate upkeeping things like that or dealing with the markets. And when vendor white gear is tens of thousands a pop, like 10% of my total wealth per piece, I'd rather save that money for savage consumables, crafted gear, and glamour. Plus, as I said, I was confident in my skill and figured a good healer undergeared would be no worse than a mediocre one overgeared. Yes, it's slightly selfish, but because I'm competent at my role the runs still went smoothly. I got commended at least once for every Sirensong run, so it didn't seem like anyone held a grudge (but who knows? I never told the DPS in the Dohn Mehg story I thought they were awful either).

So on one hand you say that you dont have enough gil to simply buy vendor stuff and at the same time have enough for savage consumables, crafted gear and glamour..that does not make much sense to me. It just feels like you simply dont want to spend that gil there. (Glamour gear alone often costs much much more than a whole set of vendor gear)

The problem is again, just because you are doing great at this does not mean that everyone is doing that. And even if people pull through with that, the one person being undergeared made the run worse thus wasted time of the other three or more people. And if you have a very undergeared tank that cant even hold aggro with the new aggro system, then they are not doing their job right. Everyone else needs to cover their slack and if everyone is medicore or maybe the healer is new and not a pro then this will end in failure. You may succeed in it, but if you dont and go out of the dungeon you again have wasted time for those people, especially the DD that may have waited really long.

Edit: Also if you like the challenge why not go at it with premades? Go take like minded people and see how low you can go and how long you can keep alive or clear things. But if you go with randoms I find that to be bad. You are wasting time for those and if you dont manage to clear something then you wasted their times even more.