Do you think taking up-skirt shots of peoples characters is creepy?

[Lunavi]

Simplified: "looking at you".

The extra detail you added to the story makes it colorful, but doesnt change anything. At best, it tries to use forceful words, to try and establish intent/personality to your examples target. (The perpetrator)

For clarification, I still consider it a rude act. But Im explaining why the argument isnt actually being handled properly, nor can it really accomplish much.
The very fact its an emotional argument, by my logic, is why its ok to be upset at someone looking at you.
But by HIS logic, the part im saying is flawed, he would equally suggest its not rude. (as much as it also suggests it is rude)
By your logic, you followed my own logic, but you added another tactic in which you attacked the personality/intent of the perpetrator, rather than explain the perspective of the perceived victim. By comparing the two ways to observe someone, with forceful methods compared to more passive methods. Which in this thread talked about just moving the camera upward, w/o having to move towards a person like you claim. Getting closer is just a step a portion of people need to do, to get the angle needed. Most people dont actually need to get close.

This comparison is pointless. The intent doesnt matter. Hypothetically, there would be people would still be upset if it kept happening by accident IRL. But they would have less support, as the ones who are only upset by intent would be less likely to support the "cause" of those trying to stop accidental upskirt pictures IRL. (If such a thing were possible.)

Of corse I am very much concerned about the intent on a topic of whenever or not a behavior is creepy. The intent is in my opinion a huge part of what makes this behavior creepy. I didn't go into the feelings of the victim as this varies too much, especially in an MMORPG, where everyone's attachment to their character are different, and some people themselves gladly take upskirt photos of their avatar to share while if I talked about real life this part would be much more focused on as almost no one would enjoy this. My main concern with your argument was in the comparasion of someone simply looking at you and going out of their way to take upskirt photos, which while not an everyday occurrence is still common enough to be creepy. Not by any necessity harmful as this is a game after all and anyone can see the model in their small clothes by just entering the character creation screen, but creepy and (as you said) rude, which is the topic.

[MaraD_]

Of corse I am very much concerned about the intent on a topic of whenever or not a behavior is creepy. The intent is in my opinion a huge part of what makes this behavior creepy.

. . . . . . +

My main concern with your argument was in the comparison of someone simply looking at you and going out of their way to take upskirt photos, which while not an everyday occurrence is still common enough to be creepy.

I agree, the perceived intent is what is creepy. Not if they actually see something or not.

But this is why this gets dicey in logistics. They can have the perceived intent/thought process w/o the action.
Though we can only know this once they do an act, which demonstrates it. But what about those who think it, want to do it, and never do it? That makes the act of "looking up a skirt" the actual issue, since we just eliminated the "idea/intent". Of course that doesnt sound right though, so that's where the weird grey area of all this is.

We can all agree, seeing the visual isnt actually an issue. (act/in context) Having certain adult interests are usually ok. (intent/in context) So for this to make sense, the real reason why it is "bad/wrong", is because it's the same thing as "I asked you not to do X, and you did X". Due to difference of opinions, its not considered morally wrong, but rude. (Obviously 99.999999% of guys at some point found out its social etiquette to not look up skirts)
It's a sort of "slap to the face" type of mentality. (W/o the violence obviously)
(EDIT: Not going to touch the argument about asking people not to do things you dislike, as this is also another issue. So I summed up with "its rude, not moral evil")

Back on topic, unfortunately, FFXIV is an even grayer area in this regard. What is considered "your avatar" in which people try to interact with "you" isnt the same as a RL version of you, or even something like your email/social media account. (Though plenty of similar comparisons)
if someone saved a picture you uploaded, and drew a mustache on your face, and saved it to their PC. They didnt do it to YOU. They didnt vandalize your property either. But its possible they intended to upset you, by letting you know about it.

Which brings me to:

I didn't go into the feelings of the victim as this varies too much,

This also applies to the perpetrator. Unlike a RL scenario, in game, far more various situations happen, and intent isnt always the same. (But I would agree its probably not as nuanced as the victim)

What if;

* You start to DC? You can no longer see anyone elses inputs. And the person/perpetrator interacts with your character when you're not even connected to the game, and any action you take isnt reflected in the game? There is now 2 versions of "you", which is the real you? are they both you?
* They start to DC? You no longer see them moving around, and they cant see anyone else moving around, Effectively everyone is an NPC to them. They interact with the 3dmodels on their screen in which ever method they want. Is this crossing the line still?
* They make a modded version of the game, to play offline, and they only interact with NPCs as such. Is it wrong?
* They create a copy of your character, and upskirt their copy?

Now to wrap up, I originally said the crime was "looking" rather than intent, due to how the "intent" gets a bit complex in games, and the fact we socially associate a digital act with the real life act.
This is a trained/social behavior that we/some have accepted w/o questioning enough. (Plus this was more about how we judge something to be bad, when it has no observable negative 'consequences' (for lack of a better word/term.))
We/Some are only bothered by it, because we associate the intent to be equivalent to the RL varriation. But in reality, the intent isnt always comparable, which leads us back to "looking" is bad.
So to finalize my thoughts; having it happen IRL is very rude, but in game only slightly rude*. Both situations are rude, but severity depends on context. *Usually (not always) including both parties having to be rude, to reach the more extreme versions of this situation. And can be so little, to be comparable to no rudeness under the right context.