So...DRK kinda sucks now.

[Lyth]

The question is when do you use that free edge? It doesn't expire.

If you're a bit creative, this unlocks some interesting fight specific considerations.

[Satarn]

I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay.

If TBN is what makes SHB DRK interesting and engaging, then SB DRK stomps it by a long shot, because TBN got really simplified in the expac transition.

SHB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Edge/Flood and upon breaking gives you a free use of Edge/Flood, so if you screw up you lose 500/300 potency and if it breaks your reward is... that nothing really changed. Of course in reality you've gained the shield, but aside from the chance to fail and be punished, you might've as well just had TBN on a free ogcd like other tank mitigation. Yes, it technically allows you to store "extra mp" above your natural pool, but with how slow MP gains are in SHB, there isn't really much risk of overcapping anyways, especially if you're spending MP on TBN, so if anything you're more limited by having to spend that single proc slot before using TBN again.

SB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Dark Arts and upon breaking gives you 50 blood to spend on one of 3 skills, Bloodspiller, Quietus and Delirium. If you screw up you lose 140 potency from DA, which is way less punishing than SHB(that's either a good thing because it feels less shitty so you're more encouraged to use the skill, or worse because it's not punishing enough - this really depends on how you feel about it). If the shield breaks, the reward depends on what you spend that blood on:

Bloodspiller - worst case scenario it's dps neutral eventually, but because it's a gcd, you can use it for gcd manipulation or even to fit more potency into burst windows, because while BS potency kinda refunds you a DA, you can still DA the BS itself.

Quietus - with enough targets it gives you more MP than you've spend on the TBN, especially if you had BW active, which lets you continue your AoE and sustain with AD. Also only AoE gcd which can be DAd for a dps gain(AD only gets the healing effect).

Delirium - ogcd with a relatively long recast, but a huge dps gain. The initial MP boost and BW extension give you way more MP than the TBN cost, as well as more gcds due to the increase in attack speed. You need to keep in mind though, that if the boss is about to go afk you'll lose the BW uptime, so it might be better to save Delirium cd and just BS right now.

SB TBN rewarding blood and Delirium/Quietus MP, created interactions between both resources giving SB DRK's kit synergy, something that SHB DRK is sorely lacking.

SHB TBN is boring in comparison, because devs made it dps neutral in the most obvious, clear cut way possible, because people couldn't wrap their heads around TBN BS actually also being dps neutral, when you looked at the entire encounter.

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

[RadicalPesto]

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

[Satarn]

Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

The amount of Dark Arts in SB was a problem, but not the amount of MP and APM. What we needed was more different things to spend MP on than just DA and TBN. SHB has cut the amount of APM which makes the job feel slower, but the inputs which do remain, are even less varied than before, rather than more.
The saddest part is that having Darkside upkeep be tied to an MP spender was a great idea to work towards that, but they tied it to all spenders instead of just one, including TBN, which entirely defeats the point.

[RadicalPesto]

Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

That's a really weird way to move the goalposts, given that your original statement is that "Edge Spam" is in no way different from "DA Spam", which it, uh, absolutely is, from a quantitative point of view, unless we're of the view that "ten" and "four" are basically the same number. Dark Arts constituted 20-25% of Dark Knight's APM in Stormblood, while Edge of Shadow is so lacking in spamminess, that "Dark Knight doesn't regenerate enough MP to use Edge of Shadow enough" is a common complaint, since it turns out that there's a lot of granularity between "you use this action on average every 6 seconds" and "you use this action on average every 15 seconds".

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

[Kabooa]

See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

I always felt Bloodspiller needed more hang time, less fluidity, and more -bang- when it landed.

Take a look at Gunbreaker's first cartridge weaponskill. The amount of weight the movement shows makes Bloodspiller look like you were ice skating.

[Satarn]

That's a really weird way to move the goalposts, given that your original statement is that "Edge Spam" is in no way different from "DA Spam"

Maybe because it's not moving goal posts at all, I don't think you understand what this phrase means. Or that you've actually read what you're responding to. Where have I said they're "in no way different"?

All I'm saying is that Edge is also spammed in burst windows and in that one way it's just as bad, but it also lacks the perk of increasing our overall APM and making you pay attention to MP during downtime. All the original line you quoted said, was that TBN doesn't affect amount of Edge used like it did for DA, nothing else. Yes, the amount is way lower to begin with, but the point is mechanic for adding some variety is lost.

That's a straw man argument btw, if you like fallacies so much.

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

This part is just absolutely subjective, as I feel the complete opposite - Edge has no cool, "eldritch" feeling to it's animation and noise like Dark Arts had. All it is is a random slash with a cheap sounding ghost scream or whatever. It doesn't seem to flow into other animations too well either. On top of that, it has a similar "pause" at the end, as the one which makes Bloodspiller so odd to use multiple times in a row.
Don't even get me started on Flood - that's legit the worst animation(if you can even call standing with your sword pointed forward and not moving at all "animation") in the game and the "sploodge" sound is even worse.

I know very well that visuals and sound are important, things like noise on DA, AD and CnS were part of what I enjoyed in DRK before. One of those is gone and one is a joke compared to what it used to be - replaced with Sploodge of Shadow and Stalwart Disco Lights. RIP Dark Passenger as well.

None of this however changes that I'm constantly advocating for neither to be spammed and instead having more varied buttons(and animations) to weave, while retaining the amount of overall inputs and MP management as SB.

[MerlinCross]

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

That is subjective. Edge of Shadow just feels "there" to me, no real "UMPH" behind it where as DA felt more "Here's the wind up" to the next attack. To give a an example from another tank, Warrior's Upheavel has a good animation and SFX to me. The "1, 2, THREE!" feels impactful and I look forward to pulling it off each time to the point I sometimes catch myself watching the full animation rather than weaving around it more. Edge just feels.... "Oh here's an attack real fast... k".

As a realated thing to show I'm not just Dunking on DRK, SE WHY'D YOU GET RID OF BUTCHER'S BLOCK?!?! Storm Path might be the preferred Finisher but it has the impact of a noddle to me, COME ON! AND MCH LOST THE GUN AMMO ANIMATIONS TOO *Strangles stress dummy in rage*

[Quor]

I always felt Bloodspiller needed more hang time, less fluidity, and more -bang- when it landed.

Take a look at Gunbreaker's first cartridge weaponskill. The amount of weight the movement shows makes Bloodspiller look like you were ice skating.

That's a great point. Burst Strike looks and feels great. It feels more impactful than Bloodspiller, even though it doesn't have the same potency.

[DRKoftheAzure]

That's a great point. Burst Strike looks and feels great. It feels more impactful than Bloodspiller, even though it doesn't have the same potency.

Carve and Spit has more "UMPH" and long animation but it's not a GCD, it's an oGCD...