So...DRK kinda sucks now.

[Lyth]

TBN has the same eHP effect as RI and Sheltron. Each one has their advantages. Sheltron can be saved up and used back to back. RI and HoL are free to use with impunity.

TBN feels stylistically good to use because it negates part of the damage, but that's a subjective effect. The main benefit that it brings to the table relative to the others is in shielding your co-tank from a tankbuster, but it can't be used the way any of the other ones can on non-tankbuster level damage. You have to be more selective on what you mitigate. You also have to plan in advance what your cooldown strategy is going to be so that you can be at the correct MP level for those tankbusters.

It definitely makes the job more interesting, though. It's the only way in which you can effectively go 'above' max MP to store up an extra Edge/Flood for burst.

[MerlinCross]

TBN has the same eHP effect as RI and Sheltron. Each one has their advantages. Sheltron can be saved up and used back to back. RI and HoL are free to use with impunity.

TBN feels stylistically good to use because it negates part of the damage, but that's a subjective effect. The main benefit that it brings to the table relative to the others is in shielding your co-tank from a tankbuster, but it can't be used the way any of the other ones can on non-tankbuster level damage. You have to be more selective on what you mitigate. You also have to plan in advance what your cooldown strategy is going to be so that you can be at the correct MP level for those tankbusters.

It definitely makes the job more interesting, though. It's the only way in which you can effectively go 'above' max MP to store up an extra Edge/Flood for burst.

But no one ever talks about RI or Sheltron. And apparently no one also talks about whatever Gunbreaker gets. It's always "TBN is so GOOD, TBN is Busted, TBN this and TBN that". Like it's the only thing worth talking about or even worth taking DRK for.

In another game, I would expect such a talked about ability to be hit with the nerf bat. But I suppose that's for another topic. I just question if people would have as much love for DRK if TBN didn't get the buff.

[Lyth]

...

People aren't talking as positively about Sheltron because it used to be significantly more powerful last expansion. With Block DR values subject to checks and balances, it's more standardised in line with the others. HoS is the only one that is slightly weaker than the others, but it's also more powerful than PLD and WAR when used on a teammate, and be used pretty much on recast unlike TBN. There are upsides and downsides to everything.

If anything, the standard TBN/DM combo for magic tankbusters is weaker than it was in Stormblood, and TBN overall is less flexible than it used to be. I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay. Living Dead, on the other hand, is still a nightmare defensively.

[MerlinCross]

People aren't talking as positively about Sheltron because it used to be significantly more powerful last expansion. With Block DR values subject to checks and balances, it's more standardised in line with the others. HoS is the only one that is slightly weaker than the others, but it's also more powerful than PLD and WAR when used on a teammate, and be used pretty much on recast unlike TBN. There are upsides and downsides to everything.

If anything, the standard TBN/DM combo for magic tankbusters is weaker than it was in Stormblood, and TBN overall is less flexible than it used to be. I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay. Living Dead, on the other hand, is still a nightmare defensively.

Use it on Tankbusters to make sure it breaks and thus you get your free Edge use. Wow. Riveting gameplay.

Now I think EVERY DRK can agree on Living Dead being a nightmare to handle. Really the only thing I find it really useful for is if I get singled out for a mulithit stack, I can just pop Living Dead an go off to the side as I haven't seen one that punches through Immunity yet.

New DRK isn't a bad class but it lost the things I liked playing about it. And no simple patch is going to radically change it till next expansion so I've just given up on it. Heck with the changes to all the tanks(And tanking) I've considered just hanging up the Role this expansion but that's another topic.

[Satarn]

I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay.

If TBN is what makes SHB DRK interesting and engaging, then SB DRK stomps it by a long shot, because TBN got really simplified in the expac transition.

SHB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Edge/Flood and upon breaking gives you a free use of Edge/Flood, so if you screw up you lose 500/300 potency and if it breaks your reward is... that nothing really changed. Of course in reality you've gained the shield, but aside from the chance to fail and be punished, you might've as well just had TBN on a free ogcd like other tank mitigation. Yes, it technically allows you to store "extra mp" above your natural pool, but with how slow MP gains are in SHB, there isn't really much risk of overcapping anyways, especially if you're spending MP on TBN, so if anything you're more limited by having to spend that single proc slot before using TBN again.

SB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Dark Arts and upon breaking gives you 50 blood to spend on one of 3 skills, Bloodspiller, Quietus and Delirium. If you screw up you lose 140 potency from DA, which is way less punishing than SHB(that's either a good thing because it feels less shitty so you're more encouraged to use the skill, or worse because it's not punishing enough - this really depends on how you feel about it). If the shield breaks, the reward depends on what you spend that blood on:

Bloodspiller - worst case scenario it's dps neutral eventually, but because it's a gcd, you can use it for gcd manipulation or even to fit more potency into burst windows, because while BS potency kinda refunds you a DA, you can still DA the BS itself.

Quietus - with enough targets it gives you more MP than you've spend on the TBN, especially if you had BW active, which lets you continue your AoE and sustain with AD. Also only AoE gcd which can be DAd for a dps gain(AD only gets the healing effect).

Delirium - ogcd with a relatively long recast, but a huge dps gain. The initial MP boost and BW extension give you way more MP than the TBN cost, as well as more gcds due to the increase in attack speed. You need to keep in mind though, that if the boss is about to go afk you'll lose the BW uptime, so it might be better to save Delirium cd and just BS right now.

SB TBN rewarding blood and Delirium/Quietus MP, created interactions between both resources giving SB DRK's kit synergy, something that SHB DRK is sorely lacking.

SHB TBN is boring in comparison, because devs made it dps neutral in the most obvious, clear cut way possible, because people couldn't wrap their heads around TBN BS actually also being dps neutral, when you looked at the entire encounter.

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

[RadicalPesto]

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

[Satarn]

Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

The amount of Dark Arts in SB was a problem, but not the amount of MP and APM. What we needed was more different things to spend MP on than just DA and TBN. SHB has cut the amount of APM which makes the job feel slower, but the inputs which do remain, are even less varied than before, rather than more.
The saddest part is that having Darkside upkeep be tied to an MP spender was a great idea to work towards that, but they tied it to all spenders instead of just one, including TBN, which entirely defeats the point.

[RadicalPesto]

Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

That's a really weird way to move the goalposts, given that your original statement is that "Edge Spam" is in no way different from "DA Spam", which it, uh, absolutely is, from a quantitative point of view, unless we're of the view that "ten" and "four" are basically the same number. Dark Arts constituted 20-25% of Dark Knight's APM in Stormblood, while Edge of Shadow is so lacking in spamminess, that "Dark Knight doesn't regenerate enough MP to use Edge of Shadow enough" is a common complaint, since it turns out that there's a lot of granularity between "you use this action on average every 6 seconds" and "you use this action on average every 15 seconds".

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

[DRKoftheAzure]

But no one ever talks about RI or Sheltron. And apparently no one also talks about whatever Gunbreaker gets. It's always "TBN is so GOOD, TBN is Busted, TBN this and TBN that". Like it's the only thing worth talking about or even worth taking DRK for.

In another game, I would expect such a talked about ability to be hit with the nerf bat. But I suppose that's for another topic. I just question if people would have as much love for DRK if TBN didn't get the buff.

If TBN got nerfed to where it was 20% HP but gave 50 blood gauge on top of MP refund, to balance it out then I would love like it was Stormblood but I would still wish for Shadowskin to be brought back and it upgrades into TBN, but that's just wishful thinking...


I also hate TBN because the benefits it provides are pointless because Savage mode and Extreme exist since those are "DPS checks the fight" but it wouldn't change how boring DRK is to play outside of those DPS gain moments...


If they brought back Spinnig Slash and Power Slash and buffed Souleater to where it doubles the potency of your next Spinning Slash and Power Slash on top of adding 2 gauge based burst combos the have 550, 600, and 650 attack potency and 200 cure potency it would bring DRKs sustained DPS up by a lot and give DRK the HP Drain tank identity that it deserves. And it actually fits in the lore of DRK that were given from level 30-70, so it's an overall win-win for everyone.

Also **** Trick Attack, it duration needs to be longer than 10 seconds...