Let's Theorize a 5.1 Balance Patch.

[MaelleRiou]

He's specifically talking about our Physical damage. Fleche, Contre, Corps, Engagement, Displacement. These are all physical and not affected by current embolden, but at the end of the day if embolden affected both physical and magical for self and party members, the best course of action will still be using them off cool down, between the decay and awkward cool down timers.

Oh, I got it.

I never realized the spell that causes giant magical swords to fly at the enemy did physical damage. So my bad on that one.

[Noctisnine]

so u think Monk should be stronger then BLM and SAM :P u are aware until u're nerfed. No fix will ever fix SAMs position without Making the DPS Gaps Even Worse then they currently are lol.

Monk needs Nerfs (not massive ones) but they need to go down to where DRG are where they were orginally, then SAM needs to be levelled off with BLM. then then People beneath the top 4 (Monk / BLM / DRG / SAM) Need Small potency increases to reduce the gap back to where it was instead of the 2700 Gap today. then the obvious QoLs to Summoner and Ninja to reduce the strain on the Jobs.

will we see that i dont know, but if u honestly beleive Monks gonna fly under the radar for 2 patchs (5.08 and 5.1) I think ur crazy... i think When they were levelling off with DRG was likely their intended Placement DPS Ladder wise :P right now Monk is the answer to everything :P

That's your opinion, mine is different. I'm not crazy I just have a different opinion then you have and if you can't accept a person having a different opinion then yours ... Than that's your problem. Sam will get his deserved buffs and he is gonna do 500 more DPS then monk just as it was in stormblood. Which is curious because they did the exact same thing and they didn't nerf monk? Why would that be I wonder... Nor they are gonna nerf black mage, otherwise they would spoke about it in the liveletter.

[Archwizard]

My main concern with making Embolden omni-damage is that it'd make us want to use Fleche/C6 awkwardly in an attempt to get the damage buff on them, and it'd bring what's already an incredibly strong buff up above 1k rDPS more likely than not. Such a buff would have to come at the cost of our personal damage, which I'd absolutely dread.

But also consider the math on that.

We get 4.8 Fleches every 2 minutes and 3.4 C6s, for each Embolden. Note that neither of these are integers and both CDs are longer than the Embolden buff, so in the ideal case when you're keeping these on CD, they won't always fall into the Embolden window, otherwise you've already lost damage from holding.
But let's say we time everything to pop C6/Fleche every time it's up, which itself means we're already taking a damage loss... for a 10% boost to two skills that make up a fraction of our damage.

A) How does the gain from having every 4th-5th Fleche and 3rd-4th C6 go up 10% compare to the loss caused by holding them to align them perfectly, and
B) Assuming the ideal scenario, what average percentage are you actually gaining by just popping both on CD and naturally waiting for them to line up?

I haven't actually crunched the numbers, but following the logic on the number of casts versus percentage damage gain, and I'm fairly certain the ultimate damage difference peaks around 2% percent just in the vacuum of those two oGCDs. And even then the point is to buff RDM in the first place.

1) Why should RDM be rewarded for poor play/proc management with an even stronger Jolt II?
2) No DoTs, the class quests explain why RDM doesn't use any DoTs and they just plain don't fit with the class's playstyle. Also, Reprise is meant to be that skill for movement phases.

1) Provided it remains weaker/less efficient than Verstone/fire, Jolt II buffs are less of a reward, more of a safety net against bad RNG strings.
2) Now I'm certain you're making stuff up. Literally WHERE does it say that?? The job quests only explain that we have low-cost skills and poor MP recovery because of the way we channel aether, they say nothing about the forms by which our spells are channeled.

[EpicOverlord85]

That's your opinion, mine is different. I'm not crazy I just have a different opinion then you have and if you can't accept a person having a different opinion then yours ... Than that's your problem. Sam will get his deserved buffs and he is gonna do 500 more DPS then monk just as it was in stormblood. Which is curious because they did the exact same thing and they didn't nerf monk? Why would that be I wonder... Nor they are gonna nerf black mage, otherwise they would spoke about it in the liveletter.

As a MNK main I honestly could care less if SAM does more damage, honestly it would make sense. Just give me back my 60 sec Perfect Balance Square

[remiff]

No new skills or old skills back ( to not write a huge post ), based in what we have and i leveled, i hope for:

WAR

- Nascent Flash: Be able to cast in yourself ( no 10% defense bonus, only heal effect ) or a Party Member with same actual effect, this way WAR self-sustain especially as solo become decent.

- Onslaught: No Gauge Points required to use, i can deal with not being able to charge because it's way faster CD, but use my Gauge whenthe other Tanks don't use anything to it isn't fair.

WHM

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency + Bind, Stun OR Interrupt effect ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't need to overheal to build Afflatus Misery most of time, FA does damage again and become usefull, because right now is a Hotbar Slot waste.

WHM need a nerf, not a buff '' whm is too strong'' ,
Fluid aura is a shitty spell among many others .

[Deithwen]

As a MNK main I honestly could care less if SAM does more damage, honestly it would make sense. Just give me back my 60 sec Perfect Balance Square

Well we don't really need it anymore, since we just can't lose our stacks ... Perfect balance is now just a buff used to spam DK and BS. To be honest, Monk is broken in all ways : broken DPS, broken identity, broken utility. Sure it does crazy DPS, but they completly lost their way with the job.

[Leidiriv]

2) Now I'm certain you're making stuff up. Literally WHERE does it say that?? The job quests only explain that we have low-cost skills and poor MP recovery because of the way we channel aether, they say nothing about the forms by which our spells are channeled.

The whole thing in the first quest about how we make up for using weaker/lower cost spells by using our body and our blade as an arcane accelerator says hi. We can't use DoTs because we're already using them, just completely frontloading their effects.

[Vendalwind]

Snip original thread post

I'ma try this again and do all the dps + a few, keeping to the rules, but keep in mind I only have MNK, NIN, DNC, DRK, AST at 80 so i honestly don't know much about others, AND NIN is really my only expertise.

Also note that I believe Damage utility classes should have higher potential rDPS than pure dps classes w/out utility. but pure classes should have better pDPS. For my statistcal reasoning i'll be examining current box-plots for ShB. Also note that DRG dmg is one of the more stable dpses, IE the variance spread is smaller than it is for most other classes, and personally i think dmg potential should be a bit lower than drg current level so as not to make Eden Savage a cakewalk. I also think difficulty should be slightly rewarded if a big jump up from the other related classes of the same role.

For each class I will make a composite % based difference in dps compared to dragoon based on median and then 75th percentile combined for each savage fight. then have one cumulative assessment as an average. This is gonna take awhile. math based on numbers at time of posting. If I run outta time tonight ill post what I have and edit the rest later. I will begin assessing after E2 math is done, because E3 and E4 see less clears still and thus are slightly biased towards higher skilled players. (but i will return to their number calculations and adjust my final assessment afterwords accordingly.) ALSO of note IMO E1 gives slight advantage to range players over melee players and burst classes via the downtime, E2 gives serious good uptime to melee, and best sustain estimate./ so looking at these two numbers gives a good window.
ALSO i want to nerf DRG values 1% cause i dont want savage to become easier. So my goals have a 1% nerf to DRG in mind.

MELEE

SAM: -E1 ~6.4% behind dragoon rDPS wise, ~2% behind pDPS wise.
E2 ~ 3.2 behind rDPS, .3% ahead pDPS

TAX: none;
GOAL more pDPS ~ 4% this would make him ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise, and depending on the raid up to ~2% behind rDPS wise sometimes ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure.

MNK: -E1 ~.1% ahead of dragoon rDPS wise, ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise
E2 ~2.6% ahead rDPS. 4.3% ahead pDPS

TAX: Mantra (can save healer dps, or even save a raid as it could have one time ive seen in leviathin cause of the stupid rain drops doing dmg and healers not thinking about them) mild BOON if Earths reply is nerfed optimal positional rotation is significantly difficult.
GOAL: pDPS nerfed 3-4%. depending on the fight he could be ahead of DRG pDPS wise, but should consistently fall behind rDPS wise now ever so slightly.
UNIQUE NEEDS: make positionals great again, seriously nerf earths reply to like 15 seconds. skill cieling remains as high but skill needed increases.


DRG: values relative seen.

TAX: none, raid buff boon to rDPS;
GOAL 1% nerf.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure

NIN: E1 ~8.5% behind rDPS wise, 14% behind pDPS wise.
E2 ~8.5% behind rDPS, 13.9% behind pDPS

TAX: None mild BOON is currently difficult and Bunnying is very punishing if lag screws you over, additionally trick attack actually takes serious effort to maintain perfect uptime on compared to other click to win raid buffs.
GOAL 9% increase. pDPS would remain about 3% behind DRG, but rDPS could go as much as 1.5% ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: less latency screw over with mudras. TCJ shouldnt make us immobile for 5-7 seconds as it currently does.

RANGED
TAX GENERAL: mobility, lack of cast times, no positional, generally easier and forgiving. I mean objectively this is true.

MCH: E1 6.5% rDPS wise, 1.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 6.5% behind rDPS, 2.8% behind pDPS

TAX: mild tactician
GOAL: higher pDPS so 3.5% buff leaving it's rDPS 2% behind DRG but putting its pDPS 1.7 ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure

BRD: E1 6.3% behind rDPS wise, 5.2% behind pDPS wise
E2 6.8% behind rDPS wise, 6.8% behind pDPS wise

TAX: mild on natures minne/troubador similar to monk.
GOAL: buffed 3% thus 2% behind rDPS and Pdps wise accounting for tax (and dragoon 1% nerf as a reminder)
UNIQUE NEEDS: identity loss, Brds basically a sniper. song effects need to come back a bit, pDPS can be reduced to compensate.

DNC: E1 8% behind rDPS wise, 17.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 11.5% behind rDOS, 20.5% behind pDPS (Holy sheeez)

TAX: Shield samba mild, cure waltz rarely helps but can help. Scaling crit with devilment might be insanely powerful later in patch cycle.
GOAL: most raid utility potential so should have stronk rDPS even tho its ranged. so Buff 9% bringing it 1.5% behind DRG, but leaving pDPS still 9% behind. Also leaves the door open to not see devilment become as OP later on.
UNIQUE NEEDS: Hella random. standardize some of that crap

CASTERS

BLM: E1 ~ 1.8% behind rDPS wise, ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise
E2 big gap median to 75th from 1% ahead to 4% ahead rDPS wise, 5.4% ahead pDPS

TAX: none
GOAL: raise is such a weird thing. I personally think casters should have a bit better dmg than melee, but weaker defenses, but thats not how this game is really balanced. thus it should be fairly similar.
with the DRG 1% nerf i think it also needs a 2% nerf keeping its E1 values similar but moving its E2 big values much more in line with still the chance to outdo dragoon rDPS wise. Its E1 position is in my mind how it should function IE < 2% behind rdps wise, but > 2% ahead pDPS wise. If raise was made a role BLM will need to drop, but I dont think raise tax should be as high as it is. 500 dps max. which is approximately a 2-4% decrease based on current dps.
UNIQUE NEEDS: none now that I'm aware of.

RDM: E1 ~ 10% behind rDPS wise, ~11.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 9% behind rDPS, 10% pDPS behind

TAX: Raise????Vercure.
GOAL: raise I value at 3% personally. (300-500 dps ish) so it still needs a 6% buff.
UNIQUE NEEDS: class identity?


SMN: E1 ~ 5% behind rDPS wise, 3.8% behind pDPS wise
E2 7.2% behind rDPS wise, 5.5% behind pDPS

TAX: RAISE????
GOAL: raise at 3% needs ~ 4% damage increase.
UNIQUE NEEDS apparently the rotation is janky as F.


MATH OVER YAY ANALYZING NOW, I MIGHT BE A ROBOT

CHANGES

SAM- 4% increase being the goal, bringing Shifu's bonus up to ~18-20 percent (from 13%) which effects most damage sources, OR Jinpu up to 20% would effectively do the trick, OR both to ~15%. For now disregarding other issues the class may have thats what i would suggest to buff them. Apparently one of the teased changes due by 5.1 will be a change to shoha, and a way to gain more mediate stacks. Potency per minute: dps ratio isnt as clean for SAM given much more varied viable SkS. Maybe Scoring a third eye off an appropriate shinten will grant meditate stacks? could be cool.

MNK-Mnk is tough mathematically. because he/she has so many different % dmg boosts at different levels potency is compounded in so many weird ways. I personally think the easiest nerf would come in the form of Riddle of Fire's dmg bonus being reduced from 25% down to 10%. Right now Riddle of fire is responsible for on average 5% of the monks entire output IF that 25% is stacked on the total after GL is applied. If before then the effect is less significant (multiplicative instead of additive). Either way dropping this would make him less bursty and more stable. if multiplicative at maximum effect this nerf would drop his dps by about 3%. So a bit more would be needed, but id feel very unsafe messing with the potencies of his base GCDs.

Additionally tho there are a few QoL upgrades/side-grades monk needs. One of which is for their U.I. to actually track Twin snakes. Second For anatman to also preserve the effect of twin snakes like it does other buffs.

DRG-

NIN-Balanced mathed out gust slash dps increase to 200, which proved correct. Which was 50 potency added to a skill used ~ every seven seconds. This gives us an image of the potency NIN needs to gain to match up the about how much potency per minute needs to be added, But before getting to that lets re apply venomous strikes at a value of 5% closing up the gap immediately. Based on the gap being ~ 1.2kdps the remaining 4% dps gap (about 600 dps) that needs to be closed is approximately 700 dps. 425 potency per minute based ont he above is almost 200 dps increase. So 425*3 = 1275 potency per minute needed to cover the remaining 4% gap. the 5% bonus to that potency comes out at about 63, so lets just say after venomous is added that 1200 potency is still needed per minute to hit the goal. (do the math yourself if you wish but i promise this checks out)

QoL changes with potency evaluated

1: Remove bunny Mudra. Allow missteps to function exactly like dancers. (costs a .5 second wheel spin but doesn't set you back any further) [if combo doesnt make sense/result in a Ninjutsu act as if button was never pushed], Alternately keep bunny, but make it on cast cast Ninjutsu cooldown so you can attempt it again next oGCD slot. TCJ would still need to have bunny removed tho entirely. no effect on potential max dps.

2: Ten Chi Jin triggers effect on Mudra cast with general ~.7 second oGCD cooldown. This removes three button pushes, and effectively reduces the time spent casting the skill(and the immobility) by ~2 seconds (from 5-7 down to 3-5). Total TCJ button count reduced from 7 to 4. this is one extra GCD every 120 seconds. so on average 300 potency gain every 2 minutes, or 150 per minute potency. Goal remaining 1050.

3: Change Mudras as such: Ten=Fuma, Chi=Raiton, Jin=Katon, Ten->Chi=Suiton, Jin->Ten=Doton, Jin->Ten->Chi=Huton.
Hyosho from Fuma, Goka from Katon when Kassatsu-ed.
Hyoton removed.
Dropping Huton is still punishing, but clipping is now less of a problem in general.
TCJ paths remain the same (ie Ten Chi Jin would yield Fuma, Raiton, Suiton as normal etc.) this is effectively 1 extra GCD every 4-6 ninjutsus. for simplicity sake lets consider perfect scenario of 4 on a faster than normal 2.0 GCD NIN (norm is ~ 2.1) due to reduced inputs and clipping this saves 1 gcd every minute and 20 seconds. so 300~ potency per 80 seconds. 225 increase per minute. SO 825 remaining.

4: Fuma 280 potency applies a bleeding debuff called Bloodburst lasting 10 seconds worth 220 potency if triggered before it expires.
Kassatsu-ed Hyosho triggers the effect.
Both moves (Raiton and Fuma) are now used. Fuma is applied before a Kassatsu for a 100 potency gain over Raiton, but if Kassatsu is unavailble Raiton is the better choice at 400 potency. This encourages better Ninjutsu management further as casting Fuma then Kassatsu next ogcd then Hyosho is proper play. Should also be useable after TCJ if #2 is implemented, otherwise window might be too tight for some ping (TCJ=5-7 seconds + GCD with Kassatsu weave 2 seconds, +GCD with cast). TCJ multiplier should not apply to the debuff. kassatsu is once per minute. this change would be 100 per minute. 725 remaining.

5: Throwing Dagger no longer breaks the gcd combo, thus enabling its free use during disconnects. Ninja's do regularly use kunai etc.
long fights maybe require the use of ~ 3 if even that throwing daggers in most of these savages, more use would be seen with this change, but I still estimate this bonus to be extremely minor. regardless lets say 25 potency per minute for simplicity sake. 700 remaining

6: Buff Suiton potency to 150, this makes Meisui really just a Ninki control tool since 40 Ninki =1/2 a 500 potency Bhava. Therefore using Suiton->Meisui is not a potency loss compared to Raiton. 30 potency gain, at maximum of once per minute. probably less. given meisui usage, but occasionally enhanced by TCJ. lets just call it 30 potency gain. 670 per minute remains.

I would next buff DWD by 100 per hit, (300 total gain) 370 remain, then buff assassinate which is a forced direct hit/crit by 100, lets call it 170 cause why not depends on the value of crit a player has and the multipliers.

200 potency per minute remains that probably could most easily be spread onto GCDs. Spinning edge is used every 6.3 seconds ish. if you gave it 20 potency, that would add almost 200 potency per minute. Goal reached.

Gonna be honest im not gonna think that hard about other classes but I will try to put a similar method into it using rework ideas grabbed from other threads. This is gonna take awhile.... Also not every class has a gigabrain behind it in the balance discord that maths things out so well. But yeah the above rework would bring us soundly to 1% less than current dragoon by my estimates.

MCH-
BRD-
DNC-

BLM-
RDM-
SMN-

[Archwizard]

The whole thing in the first quest about how we make up for using weaker/lower cost spells by using our body and our blade as an arcane accelerator says hi. We can't use DoTs because we're already using them, just completely frontloading their effects.

Wow, you really hung your entire argument on that one line, huh.

"To manifest more powerful effects, the first red mages adopted a method by which precise sword techniques would harness and amplify the energy of their spoken incantations -- the mage's own physical form serving as an arcane accelerator. An ingenious way of preserving their self-imposed limitations."

"Arcane accelerator" doesn't mean "when you cast a DoT, the entire thing is one tick dealt upfront" like Thundercloud. He was literally explaining with the most jargon possible that we cast from our body's own reserve of aether as a reminder to keep our spells cheap and calculated, and channel it through our Enchanted melee strikes, rather than just quite literally nuking the battlefield from orbit like a Black Mage.

That literally says nothing that would prevent the application of DoTs. Hell, we could inflict a regular bleed on the target at no consequence.

And let's be honest here: Even if it did mean that, you really think the devs wouldn't just go back and redo that quest text? You think they didn't do that every time a spell like Tri-Disaster Tri-Bind Outburst got renamed or shuffled around in level?
Mechanics aren't made to fit the lore. Lore's written after the mechanics are already made in order to add fluff and flavor to the world, so when an RPer says "why do you do this", they have an explanation that doesn't go into "because the devs thought it would be balanced."
Lore's the single flimsiest justification for mechanics, 'cuz it can be rewritten.

THAT BEING SAID!
I disagree with the addition of a DoT to the RDM kit if it doesn't affect player behavior or interaction with the rotation.
Given that all of our existing skills are designed for instant gratification, adding a DoT to them would just be for a DoT's sake, not a mechanical interaction.
And while I've heard a few people elsewhere suggest a DoT on Reprise, I would hate to see the extra Mana we get from Scorch be completely relegated to DoT maintenance when its intent is to speed up the rotation, not slow down our casting phase by at least three more GCDs.

[wereotter]

1) Why should RDM be rewarded for poor play/proc management with an even stronger Jolt II?
2) No DoTs, the class quests explain why RDM doesn't use any DoTs and they just plain don't fit with the class's playstyle. Also, Reprise is meant to be that skill for movement phases.
3) Embolden's fine as is, it's currently either the second or third strongest buff in the game, being roughly equivalent to Technical Step (750-800 rDPS in a phys comp)

It’s not about proc management. It’s to make the job not be punished for bad RNG and simply not having and procs to use. Additionally it would allow the player to more finely finesse the actual white and black mana numbers without taking a hit to their potencies.

Embolden is one of those skills that is only good if the party is planning around it. My raid group does not and I’ve only ever seen them get 200-300 rDPS out of it. Also it’s not helped that we’re running two casters. This means my contribution is hurt because of a lack of 3 other physical DPS.