Warrior and Dark Knight's Predicament

[Absimiliard]

Odds are very good that you will perform better on a job you actually enjoy versus one that is completely optimal. When it comes to this game - and especially its tanks, given their currently well balanced state - you are best served finding what you like and rolling with it. So what if GNB or PLD are considered the "best" tanks right now? If you don't like how they play, you're probably not gonna do as well as you would with something you find more fun.

[Quor]

Only problem with TBN is when gear scaling becomes an issue and even large wall to wall.pulls cant break it because it just shields too much damage.

At that point we simply resurrect the ancient art of pants-less tanking.

As to tank balance, the only thing I'll say is I think DRK needs a wee bit more MP gain. Either directly boosting MP gain on BW and SS, or perhaps lowering the CD on CnS/AB to 30s and adding an MP drain component to AB. Assuming MP drain on AB of 200 per-target, you'd get a bit more than 50 potency extra from the MP per minute on top of the raw 200 from using AB. CnS would now grant 900 potency per minute instead of 450, and about 190ish potency from the 1200 MP total per minute. Nothing earth shattering as far as potency increases go, and on boss fights you're looking at a gain of 800 MP per minute, which is hardly game-breaking. Obviously AB would be pretty strong in an aoe situation, but those are almost exclusively limited to 4-mans and thus irrelevant.

As it stands now, DRK is the tankiest of the tanks, largely thanks to TBN, and it's a power we can even give to others. While the quantity of "utility" actions DRK has is low, the quality of TBN is so high that it's hard to find something as valuable. Being able to tell your healers "you get an extra 1-2 GCD's because I'm shielding so-and-so for this mechanic" is huge when it adds up over a fight. You're talking 4-8 GCD's per minute extra that a healer has available thanks to what TBN does. Nobody would turn down an extra 40-80 GCD's over the course of a 10 minute.

And DRK get's it all for free (if we do it right).

[millktea]

I'm not talking about what was I'm talking about what is now as it stands the tanks are more balanced then they ever have been no longer are you pigeon holding a WAR for slashing or because of how it has Unchained, how back in HW PLD was only good in physical encounters and suffered in magical. What I'm talking about is right now as of this moment bringing any tank doesn't hinder you at all period, sure some have god support like PLD with Cover/Intervention/Divine Veil doesn't mean that bringing a DRK for example is gonna hinder you because you don't have Intervention its nice to have.

I don't NEED to play GNB or NEED to play PLD because they're the 2 best tanks I play what I want to play because I enjoy playing DRK and my buddy who I raid with enjoys playing WAR that's why both of us play either, just because people aren't happy with DRK or WAR doesn't mean they're not fun and you can't dictate what I wanna play.

I was talking about now, and it does explain it in the entire post. they are not balanced now, but you chose to only quote some of my post. slashing alone is not what caused warrior to be required, as samurai and ninja exist, and with the changes in stormblood, it wasnt even an issue for ninja to put it up. at that point, that is an issue with RESISTANCES not the tanks. Unchained isn't what made war required either. unchained wasn't used in Deltascape and War is pulled and MTed.

while no slashing caused the other two tanks to do 10% less damage, the issue was more along the lines of that dark knight was a hinderance to the party. it didn't offer anything. while tbn is good, it did not outdo cover or intervention and it's cost of resource was higher and it wasn't free at all. to get any sort of dps gain with tbn, you had to really know every gcd and every auto attack from the boss and know what would break it. dark had no party mitigation nor utility at all. and even now, yes, they do hinder the party compared. LD is still trash. dark can ONLY mitigate magical raid wide with a shield while the other tanks can do all damage. dark doesn't have the utility that pld brings and nor does it have the cd mitigation that war and gnb have. and DM cannot compare with SIO. you just admitted that pld as "god mode" support, which already shows you admitted that they are not balanced, and yet pld does more damage than dark who has less utility. bringing your dark knight over the pld is a rDPS loss because it requires more healing and mitigation, which means less healer dps. healing isnt "free". healers also have gcd that they could be using and that still holds today.


you liking a job or having FUN with the other tanks DOES NOT they are BALANCED. dark was fun for some in stormblood, but by playing it, you were hurting your team for YOUR enjoyment. this game isnt a solo player game and raid isn't about the individual. this is the problem with your argument: you are trying to say that they are balanced because you are having fun and that isnt what determines balance. if you want to play a "bad" job, that is nice for you. this however, does not change the fact that they are inferior. entertainment doesnt qual balance.

also, warrior could seem fun to more simple players, but the fact is that warrior has lost a lot of what made the job warrior. SE has taken a lot from their rotation and abilities and hardly gave it any return. out of all the tanks, warrior has the least amount of attacks, and two of them are the same button. and both sets are RECYCLCED animations with a different name. warrior has regressed every expansion save heavensward. while warrior DID have growth in stormblood, the community couldn't handle it and SE shouldve found a different way to fix this other than 4.2 IR. the dev team had TWO YEARS to adjust what warrior was in 4.1 and they made it even more barren.

war got nothing in ShB. NF is a cut in half IB and tempest isnt new nor unique to warrior.out of the three veteran tanks, it lost the most. dark just ended up getting what warrior has, just no DHC with BW.

SE said their focus was lower levels. why does gnb get a gapcloser before the others? why does dark not have tbn before 69? it doesnt have any cds? why does it not get their second hit in their aoe combo until 72 as if that is considered "growth". pld, gnb, and war all have that at lower levels. the cd issue is also bad with pld too. pld needs to wait at least 25 or so seconds of uptime to get sheltron. the other tanks do not require this.

[Quor]

[QUOTE=millktea;5156202]war got nothing in ShB. NF is a cut in half IB and tempest isnt new nor unique to warrior.out of the three veteran tanks, it lost the most. dark just ended up getting what warrior has, just no DHC with BW.

NF isn't the IB replacement, RI is. IB was never used anyway; you wanted to be in Deliverance to use Fell Cleave. Now you get 20% DR from RI and the ability to Fell Cleave at the same time.

SE said their focus was lower levels. why does gnb get a gapcloser before the others? why does dark not have tbn before 69? it doesnt have any cds? why does it not get their second hit in their aoe combo until 72 as if that is considered "growth". pld, gnb, and war all have that at lower levels. the cd issue is also bad with pld too. pld needs to wait at least 25 or so seconds of uptime to get sheltron. the other tanks do not require this.

I'm guessing GNB gets a gap closer so early for the same reason they don't get an aoe spender until 72; it was just designed that way. But while gap closers are nice, they're not needed, and certainly not a balance issue regardless of what level you get them.

Life before TBN does suck as a DRK, but it's not as bad as many make it out to be. DRK has a number of distinct advantages, not the least of which is the reason why DRK doesn't get their aoe combo until 72; Flood/Edge of Darkness. Having a 250 potency oGCD line aoe with a 3s cooldown is far more aoe aggro and damage than any WAR, GNB or PLD will be generating at 30. Yeah you have to use your single target combo for mana, who cares. Your damage certainly isn't suffering for it.

Lastly, while it does suck that PLD has to wait a bit, it's more than made up for in other ways, specifically how strong blocking in general is. It also doesn't kill PLD to use Rampart first if mitigation is needed prior to Sheltron being online.

[millktea]

I don't want to play a card game just to get to the point of your post. Sometimes it pays to be succinct.

Healing doesn't prevent you from getting oneshot. Mitigation doesn't prevent you from being slowly whittled down over time. That's why you can't compare the two.

actually, that is the point of mitigation.

[Awful]

Snip.

Yes I did admit PLD has amazing supportive abilities but you're missing the overall balance of tanks, no ones gonna turn you down because you play a WAR or that you play a DRK it's not like how WAR was a broken mess in 2.0 when it came out or PLD in Gordias/Midas/Creator or DRK in SB. Compare the tanks to the healers at the start of the xpac it speaks volumes, AST having garbage heals, awkward CDs (people are really upset with the healer balance mostly AST), I'd say tanks are in a pretty good spot so far I could care less that GNB is top DPS with PLD being right behind it.

And no i'm not a detriment to my group by playing DRK just because I'd get what, 2% more raid DPS by switching to PLD? I'd rather just play DRK which I find fun should my co-tank also go GNB because WAR is bad too according to you? . You're also putting words in my mouth by saying my enjoyment > balance that's not it at all, I enjoy what I play and me playing a "meta" class isn't going to change anything significantly, the question I ask you if you're so upset with me playing a sub-par tank why are you playing WAR?

You're upset with it and put valid criticism but aren't you a detriment to your own raid group if you're playing WAR? I feel like you're focusing way too much on the top tier classes and can't see that this expansion is no where near HW/SB levels of imbalance that's my point i'm trying to get across. I'm advocating that people should play what they want because they shouldn't have to be told to play PLD because it's so much better than the 2 lesser tanks WAR/DRK and partner up with a GNB because it's the top tier tank you can play anything you want as long as you put in the effort and do your best with your group you'll achieve it.

Bottom line is I don't care what you enjoy and I don't care if you think I'm holding my group back for playing a sub-par class I'll play it and continue to raid as one as I hated it in SB and I love how all the tanks play right now and compared to HW and SB there's not a huge disparity among them. The only thing I'll agree on is that lower level tanking is a mess as DRK should get TBN earlier, tanks get their gap closers late vs GNB, DM is the only tank CD till TBN and it sucks and PLD has CD issues as you mentioned.

[Marxam]

The only change I want for WAR is having Nascent Flash remove the mandatory ally requirement to use such an important ability. PLD is the only one able to solo a boss and carry a dead party in the worst case scenario and I think another tank should also share that trait. I feel like a good compromise would be if you can use Nascent Flash on yourself, you will only get the 50% heal effect and not the 10% mitigation from Nascent Glint. I play on controller and having to manually tab does get a bit hectic at times especially when I need to do during IR windows where I can possibly risk losing an FC due to being too slow so I have to macro it. I would prefer to manually target but this move is so cumbersome to use.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

Personally I'd prefer it if they just deleted Raw Intuition and have NF that give the 10% damage reduction and % healing to whomever it is used on. This way War can choose to target ourselves, emphasize the main gimmick that makes half of War's mitigation unique and make it so War doesn't feel so dang squishy b4 76.

Does it mean that we can't heal both ourselves and our Co-tank at the same time? Sure, but I'm sure that many War mains would be more than happy to accept this slight nerf.

[EpicOverlord85]

I just want DRK to feel like it’s own job again. Haven’t really had that feeling since HW.

[Ventura_Highway]

also by the time you reach that point of knowledge about the fight you can play any other tank and be fine.

Not to put words in your mouth, but if the game is such that we could play any tank in a given fight and be fine, is this not a good thing?
It sounds more like the issue, if there was one, would be a lack of difference between the tanks, which is another issue entirely.