Balance, Homogenisation and Encounter Design: The Problem.

[Shurrikhan]

Truth be told the DpS focus of this game is more the result of all high end fights having tight hard enrage timers. Its hard to not be dps focused when completion of a fight is more determined by doing X amount of damage before X minutes are up than being able to repeatably do mechanics.

They're not that tight, though. They still allow for failure far more than the only other real alternative -- one-shot or crippling mechanics and limited rezzes. The dps checks could more aptly be called "effective average quality of mechanics management" checks.

They're not "dps focused" so much as having so few ways by which anything but healer shields and raid mitigation/absorption CDs can actually do anything to improve your chances of reaching the end of the fight except by... dpsing.

Making the classes more homogenized is a side-effect of them simply trying to lessen their workload, in my opinion.

Tfw that exact excuse, with the alleged trade of better balancing and more engaging fights, has been used in multiple MMOs I've played, only to then create worse balance and fights which the community generally rated lower than those made before the streamlining occurred...

[Ultimatecalibur]

They're not that tight, though. They still allow for failure far more than the only other real alternative -- one-shot or crippling mechanics and limited rezzes. The dps checks could more aptly be called "effective average quality of mechanics management" checks.

They're not "dps focused" so much as having so few ways by which anything but healer shields and raid mitigation/absorption CDs can actually do anything to improve your chances of reaching the end of the fight except by... dpsing.

Comparable to other possibilities they are tight. Titania EX is on an 11 minute hard timer. E1S is on a 10 min hard timer that shortens with every death. Also I've seen plenty of wipes over the past 5 and 1/2 years in EX and Savage fights where the group could do the mechanics perfectly but they just didn't have the dps to kill the boss, it is far to easy to hit enrage and often a fight will only go throw 2 final phase rotations before enrage happens. There is little benefit to greater tank survivability and healer longevity.

Getting to an enrage should be a test of tank and healer capabilities to survive and heal while killing the boss before then should be a test of the dps' output. Right now it is not hard to get to a fight's enrage once the dance is learned.

[Shurrikhan]

Getting to an enrage should be a test of tank and healer capabilities to survive and heal while killing the boss before then should be a test of the dps' output.

Isn't that exactly what we have now? Or do you want back the 5-tanks 3-healers Extreme Primal prog meta we had when dps checks lightened?

[Acidblood]

Isn't that exactly what we have now? Or do you want back the 5-tanks 3-healers Extreme Primal prog meta we had when dps checks lightened?

DPS can still be important without hard enrages; and you can still have hard enrages, just set them at 15 minutes instead of 10 (assuming the fight is balanced around 10 minutes).

To do this though you need Healers to have finite MP, and have enough unavoidable outgoing damage from the boss that Healers will go OOM within 10 minutes... unless of course you use mitigation, and party MP regen abilities, and do mechanics well (death is a huge waste of MP), and debuff the boss, and kill the adds quickly, and etc.

This creates a much more even and natural balance between DPS and Survivability; i.e. if all you focus on is DPS then you had better do it damn well because you aren’t going survive for very long. If, however you focus on efficient survivability (and do it well) then DPS isn't so much of an issue because you can still beat the fight even if it takes you 14 minutes.

Note 1: This would probably require some adjustments to current Tank DPS (Healers should be too busy healing to do much), with Tanks having a greater focus on mitigation.

Note 2: This would require a redesign of Healers (which is probably needed anyway) as current Healer design is too focused on burst healing. Heals would need to be (generally) less powerful but more efficient, including via interactions (e.g. Medica II HoT increases Medica heals by 10%).

Note 3: Set DPS checks are still fine in small doses, so you could still build them in to prevent full Tank / Healer parties, just don’t make the entire fight a hard DPS check.

Note 4: Soft enrages could also be used, and start around the 10 minute mark, with each ‘rotation’ getting harder and harder to survive; this would create a ‘standard’ finishing point that you would want to aim for while still allowing variance in party composition and approach.


... Either that of SE needs to fully embrace the DPS nature of its designs and give Healers a decent damage / support kit.

[Shurrikhan]

DPS can still be important without hard enrages; and you can still have hard enrages, just set them at 15 minutes instead of 10 (assuming the fight is balanced around 10 minutes).

To do this though you need Healers to have finite MP, and have enough unavoidable outgoing damage from the boss that Healers will go OOM within 10 minutes... unless of course you use mitigation, and party MP regen abilities, and do mechanics well (death is a huge waste of MP), and debuff the boss, and kill the adds quickly, and etc.

This creates a much more even and natural balance between DPS and Survivability; i.e. if all you focus on is DPS then you had better do it damn well because you aren’t going survive for very long.

No, it doesn't. It would make no difference except that the dps check would now arrive anywhere between some 7 and 10 minutes based on how sparingly your healers used MP. Healers afking between damage intake would be not only viable but often required. (And I've no idea what to say to you if you could possibly think that a system which requires you to spend significant time doing nothing or almost only ever using the most modest and MP-efficient mini-heals is somehow a good thing.)

You'll have moved the enrage, in all likelihood, earlier, while demanding less activity or clarity of purpose from players. "Should I sacrifice uptime to further reduce damage taken from these flare mechanics?" "Well, how good are your healers and tanks, and did you forget to bring PLD-DRK and WHM-WHM to extend healer MP for as long as possible?" "I, uh, don't know, and we have AST-SCH." "Well, I guess enrage will be around 8 minutes if they're good?"

[Acidblood]

No, it doesn't. It would make no difference except that the dps check would now arrive anywhere between some 7 and 10 minutes based on how sparingly your healers used MP. Healers afking between damage intake would be not only viable but often required. (And I've no idea what to say to you if you could possibly think that a system which requires you to spend significant time doing nothing or almost only ever using the most modest and MP-efficient mini-heals is somehow a good thing.)

You'll have moved the enrage, in all likelihood, earlier, while demanding less activity or clarity of purpose from players. "Should I sacrifice uptime to further reduce damage taken from these flare mechanics?" "Well, how good are your healers and tanks, and did you forget to bring PLD-DRK and WHM-WHM to extend healer MP for as long as possible?" "I, uh, don't know, and we have AST-SCH." "Well, I guess enrage will be around 8 minutes if they're good?"

Who said healers would be AFKing? Damage spells don't have to cost MP, and as I noted it would require a change in Healer design and the rate of outgoing damage.

Also, players will always value damage, the game does not need to do that for them, what it does need to do is give them a reason to value other things like mitigation (beyond the binary 'will it kill us'), resource management / regen, non-damage buffs and debuffs (again beyond the binary), and damage applied at the right time.

As for your example, that is for individual groups to work out, and sure there may be a few wipes while they do, but how is that really any different to now... except of course if people’s expectations of 'high-end' content is to go in, place some markers, play to a script, roll on loot, gg. (which at this point it probably is).

[linay]

Also I've seen plenty of wipes over the past 5 and 1/2 years in EX and Savage fights where the group could do the mechanics perfectly but they just didn't have the dps to kill the boss

That said, sometimes doing mechanics perfectly means doing it while keeping up high uptime. It's not really doing mechanics perfectly if you don't do anything (or do less than you should) while "doing" the mechanics.

That isn't on the players though. When jobs are this imbalanced, the fault lies squarely on the devs for allowing it to occur. The players are simply taking the jobs which best help facilitate a clear. You can argue Ninja is perfectly viable but when a 20% Monk is better than a 50% Ninja, well...

And just for reference sake. You don't see this happening with the tanks despite Warrior being clearly weaker than its counterparts.

It is on the players when there is nothing in the game that tells the players to take that 20% monk over that 50% ninja. That is purely player preference. Sure, that preference is influenced by the state of the game, but it is still a preference rather than the game telling you that a ninja cannot work on so-and-so fight regardless of how good the player is.

[ForteNightshade]

It is on the players when there is nothing in the game that tells the players to take that 20% monk over that 50% ninja. That is purely player preference. Sure, that preference is influenced by the state of the game, but it is still a preference rather than the game telling you that a ninja cannot work on so-and-so fight regardless of how good the player is.

They know FFlogs exists, and thereby know most raiders will have this knowledge. There is no excuse for any jobs to have that large a discrepancy. It isn't player preference, it's basic pragmatism.

[linay]

It isn't player preference, it's basic pragmatism.

Pragmatism is why I said I don't blame people for being picky about jobs. But this is a video game, not a matter of life and death. Being pragmatic is still player preference. As you've said yourself, a group of friends could very well be cool with not having the best jobs. As long as people are skilled enough (to at least make some progress), they could still have a good time running any content.

[ForteNightshade]

Hard Enrages are one of the main issues with this game when it comes to endgame to be honest. Why everyone only cares about DPS. Just pure stupid game design.

Should make them soft enrages. 10mins or whatever hits. Bosses get a stack of dmg taken -10% and damage dealt +10% then an additional stack for each 30secs - minute after that, to the point where it is impossible to kill.

Not the oh well you are at 5% guess what though... you had a Ast, nin, and rdm in your party so you timed out. Do not worry though you can wait 3 weeks longer then groups of equal skill to clear it or play the meta jobs.

While I do like soft enrages, they functionally serve the same purpose. In fact, they're more likely to encourage a DPS focused mentality. After all, if you lose the DPS checks or fail a mechanic, the boss just became even harder.

Regardless, seeing enrage has nothing whatsoever to do with the job selection you pick. Your odds may be better with jobs like Monk and Black Mage but none are so bad they literally cannot clear.

Pragmatism is why I said I don't blame people for being picky about jobs. But this is a video game, not a matter of life and death. Being pragmatic is still player preference. As you've said yourself, a group of friends could very well be cool with not having the best jobs. As long as people are skilled enough (to at least make some progress), they could still have a good time running any content.

The difference being you know those seven other people, and know they can compensate for your preferred job's shortcomings. A random pug does not, which is why you see certain jobs being locked out, albeit not nearly to the extent people like to insinuate. No matter how you slice it, the onus lies with the dev team to make each job competitive within its own category. Player preference does play a factor, but that preference comes from how each job performs.

Wow, so are we really down to cosmetics and pushing buttons in a slightly different order?

To be fair, certain aspects of a job need to be uniform. Otherwise, people prioritize the superior option above all else. I mean, why wouldn't they? Case in point, when Paladin was the physical tank and Dark Knight magical. You saw less and less Paladins because practically the entirety of Alexander was magic heavy.