(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[QT_Melon]

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things).)

Who is saying that she should be outright killed? I mean isn't that a strawman argument?

[Absimiliard]

It is less about wanting Hydaelyn dead and more about wanting her to actually be held responsible for her actions. I.e. we do not want her to be absolved of all wrongdoing in the downfall of the world as it once was. We feel the story would be far more compelling if she herself - and her champion by relation - turned out to be just as guilty as her contemporaries. The people saying we should kill her outright are a very small minority.

[Alleluia]

It is less about wanting Hydaelyn dead and more about wanting her to actually be held responsible for her actions. I.e. we do not want her to be absolved of all wrongdoing in the downfall of the world as it once was. We feel the story would be far more compelling if she herself - and her champion by relation - turned out to be just as guilty as her contemporaries. The people saying we should kill her outright are a very small minority.

"just as guilty" of what, though? She's entirely responsible for the world's current state as a localized multiverse, and shares no credit for that with anyone else as far as we know. But I don't see where the wrong that she's guilty of comes in? It was the only way she could defeat Zodiark, who basically wanted to take the unsundered world all under his sway and would ultimately eat a bunch of sentient people in it. I mean, as far as we've seen, even according to the Ascians, Hydaelyn was no match for Zodiark otherwise. It was her only option if he was to be beaten. The alternative was that he wasn't beaten and future generations of sentient life (that was non-Ancient/Ascian) were going to be born simply to ultimately die in a sacrifice to him, never knowing lives free of that threat. Hydaelyn averted that. Personally, I'm ok with her actions in the scenario we've been given so far. "Best of bad options" comes to mind.

And this comes from someone sympathetic to the Ancients themselves. I would like a happy ending where the remaining Ascians are freed of Zodiark's tempering and any of their people that can be recovered (assuming they really are "sleeping" in some manner as opposed to being dead and gone) are recovered. They can have a continent or a pocket dimension of their very own, and continue on as a people. I'd love an "Everybody lives!" ending. But Zodiark needs to either be taken out or recalibrated so he's not a threat to people anymore. Zodiark, as he currently is, cannot be suffered to exist, imo.

[Absimiliard]

"just as guilty" of what, though? She's entirely responsible for the world's current state as a localized multiverse, and shares no credit for that with anyone else as far as we know. But I don't see where the wrong that she's guilty of comes in? It was the only way she could defeat Zodiark, who basically wanted to take the unsundered world all under his sway and would ultimately eat a bunch of sentient people in it. I mean, as far as we've seen, even according to the Ascians, Hydaelyn was no match for Zodiark otherwise. It was her only option if he was to be beaten. The alternative was that he wasn't beaten and future generations of sentient life (that was non-Ancient/Ascian) were going to be born simply to ultimately die in a sacrifice to him, never knowing lives free of that threat. Hydaelyn averted that. Personally, I'm ok with her actions in the scenario we've been given so far. "Best of bad options" comes to mind.

And this comes from someone sympathetic to the Ancients themselves. I would like a happy ending where the remaining Ascians are freed of Zodiark's tempering and any of their people that can be recovered (assuming they really are "sleeping" in some manner as opposed to being dead and gone) are recovered. They can have a continent or a pocket dimension of their very own, and continue on as a people. I'd love an "Everybody lives!" ending. But Zodiark needs to either be taken out or recalibrated so he's not a threat to people anymore. Zodiark, as he currently is, cannot be suffered to exist, imo.

Ascians and Ancients are two separate categories. The Ascians refer specifically to those few Zodiark loyalists that remain extant.

That covered, I have one question: Can you refer me to where you got any information suggesting that Zodiark was out for conquest or consumption?

To my knowledge we've zero reason at this time to believe Zodiark was anything other than exactly what they summoned him to be. All planned sacrifices appear to have been entirely the idea of the Ancients--later Ascians--to save the world, repopulate the world, and then save those heroic figures that sacrificed themselves in the same of repairing and healing their world. The first set of sacrifices were necessary so that Zodiark would even exist, whilst the second either re-summoned him or restored enough of his power for him to be able to both restore the land's ability to sustain life and repopulate it with the myriad of non-sapient life we see on the Source (and its shards) today. We do not at this time know whether or not he created sapient life. The third and final sacrifice would have taken the lion's share of that new life, presumably after it had been given enough time to experience a significant population boon, and exchange it for the souls of those heroic Ancients that willingly gave their lives for the salvation of their world.

Tl;dr: It is never suggested that Zodiark wanted to control the world, to consume the world, etc. We don't know what, if anything, the entity wanted. All we know is that the Ancients willingly made sacrifices so it would have the power to do what they wanted it to.

[Alleluia]

Ascians and Ancients are two separate categories. The Ascians refer specifically to those few Zodiark loyalists that remain extant.

That covered, I have one question: Can you refer me to where you got any information suggesting that Zodiark was out for conquest or consumption? To my knowledge we've zero reason at this time to believe Zodiark was anything other than exactly what they summoned him to be. All planned sacrifices appear to have been entirely the idea of the Ancients--later Ascians--to save the world, repopulate the world, and then save those heroic figures that sacrificed themselves in the same of repairing and healing their world.

My thinking is this: Pre-sundering, Zodiark did nothing to dissuade his followers from their plan of "Let's raise several generations of sentient life so they can be sacrificed in a big batch to bring back our dead." They are tempered. If he didn't want them to do that plan, they wouldn't be doing that plan. Therefore, he wants the plan, and by extension wants the complete dominion over the unsundered world that that plan would require. His followers aren't going to suffer someone else to counter their sacrifice plan, after all. Therefore, there can be no other true powers besides Zodiark allowed.

As for all planned sacrifices being entirely the idea of the Ancients, I don't think we actually know this for a fact. We know they planned sacrifice number 1 before doomsday, but I don't think we actually know when plan 2 and 3 were made, and they could potentially have been conceived after the Ascians were tempered. Though, please, if I'm wrong, source me some info on it. Cus I could be wrong. But whether I'm right or you are about when plans 2 and 3 were thought up, Zodiark was still in charge once he tempered them in plan 1. So my previous reasoning still stands.

And I don't know why you are explaining the difference btwn Ancients and Ascians to me. I know what I said and I'm fairly certain I used both terms correctly in that quote. lol

[Absimiliard]

There is none the less nothing that would currently suggest Zodiark had any control over the matter. We've seen numerous instances of tempered individuals doing things their primal either doesn't know about or doesn't condone. Even Ramuh, a primal expressly opposed to both tempering and sacrifices, involuntarily tempered a bunch of sylphs that then kept doing things - including amassing more crystals - in his name.

So uh.. Last question, I guess. Where do people keep getting the idea that the life created by Zodiark was sentient and/or sapient? There's no evidence one way or the other yet.

[Theodric]

From a logical standpoint, if Hydaelyn is being given the benefit of doubt then it stands to reason that Zodiark should be as well. We've yet to actually hear Zodiark's side of things and what Hydaelyn pushed as the 'truth' has since turned out to be a lie. If an argument can be made for her lies to be a necessity for the sake of the greater good then you might as well petition for the Archbishop of Ishgard to be brought back given that he had the exact same viewpoint.

On my end, I am of the belief that the most interesting approach and fairest compromise would be for both Zodiark and Hydaelyn to be a necessity for the sake of balance or for both of them to need to be removed very carefully and thus end up as boss fights.

[Alleluia]

There is none the less nothing that would currently suggest Zodiark had any control over the matter. We've seen numerous instances of tempered individuals doing things their primal either doesn't know about or doesn't condone. Even Ramuh, a primal expressly opposed to both tempering and sacrifices, involuntarily tempered a bunch of sylphs that then kept doing things - including amassing more crystals - in his name.

Ok, so its been a while since I fought Ramuh, but I looked up his pre- and post- battle cutscenes and I see nothing indicating he has involuntarily tempered people, is against tempering, or wishes his purple sylphjs wouldn't kidnap green ones to bring to him. I assume you have a source in mind for the information, though. Could you please link me or direct me to where this is stated?

So uh.. Last question, I guess. Where do people keep getting the idea that the life created by Zodiark was sentient and/or sapient? There's no evidence one way or the other yet.

I wasn't saying Zodiark created the sentient life necessarily. Its possible the sentient life existed before The Doom(tm) and he just restored more of it when he fixed the world during Phase 2.

I do think that the life around pre-sundering included the sentient peoples we know today, and we know that b/c they exist on all shards. This means they must have been present in the world before the sundering. As opposed to having independently evolved in the 12 thousand years since the sundering, cus then they'd be exclusive to their own home shard and that's it.

And my thinking on how we know they would be sacrificing the existing sentient life in Phase 3 is a few things, strongest of which is that it'd be pretty silly for the untempered Ancients to summon Hydaelyn and sunder the world just to protect a bunch of non-sentient flowers and algae.

[ObsidianFire]

Zodiark is never credited with creating life as far as I can tell. He is credited with regenerating the physical world so life could live on it after he stopped the Last Days. Then the Convocation of Thirteen decided that they would let the life on the world continue to develop until there was enough aether to sacrifice to Zoidark to get the 75% of the Ancient population that was sacrificed to Zoidark back.

Never mind that so far there has never been any mention of Zoidark (or any other Priaml for that matter) releasing back the aether they have already absorbed until they are killed. And given that in order to summon Zoidark it took the aether of the 50% of the Ancient population... I have a hard time seeing anything giving Zoidark enough aether at par with the Ancient's aether to keep him going and get the Ancients back other then the aether of other Ancients. Or at the very least the aether of other sentient life.

No matter what is getting sacrificed to Zoidark, there seems to be the start of a cycle of "sacrifice enough aether to be most of the population of a planet to get something from him". With the "something" people are getting from Zoidark being anything from rewritten laws of reality to a restored physical world to the souls of people already sacrificed to him. Where does that kind of sacrifice system stop?

Or to quote someone else in the game on the topic of people being dependent on (false) gods...

In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon gods to fight in their stead─though your comrades only rarely respond in kind. Which is strange, is it not?
Are the “Twelve” otherwise engaged? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do you not repeat the trick that served you so well at Carteneau, and call them down?
They will answer─so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether.
Your gods are no different from those of the beasts─eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea's faith is bleeding the land dry.

The subjects of a weak ruler must needs look to a higher power for providence...and their dependence comes at a cost to the realm.
The misguided elevate the frail... And the frail lead the people astray.
Unless a man of power wrests control...the cycle will never be broken.
You... You of all people must see the truth in this. You who have the strength to rule...

Substitute Eorzea with Amarot, the Beast Tribes with the Convocation of Thirteen and the Eikons with Zoidark and you pretty much have Gaius describing exactly what the situation was after Zodiark was summoned is. Complete with other people deciding the cycle had gone on long enough and breaking it...

[YianKutku]

Tl;dr: It is never suggested that Zodiark wanted to control the world, to consume the world, etc. We don't know what, if anything, the entity wanted. All we know is that the Ancients willingly made sacrifices so it would have the power to do what they wanted it to.

My position is that it is irrelevant what Zodiark wants (until we get to actually meet him), just as it is irrelevant what Hydaelyn wants.

What matters is what their representatives do. Hydaelyn has had evil representatives, such as the much-mentioned Ajora of Ivalician history. But Hydaelyn has also had good representatives, like our player characters as the Warrior of Light. (Whereby "good" is defined in this context as "acts to try to reduce and alleviate suffering as a goal", and "evil" is defined as "acts to try to increase and exacerbate suffering as a goal".)

Meanwhile, all of Zodiark's known representatives are evil.

This could be because all of Zodiark's known representatives are Ascians, and we have yet to see a non-Ascian representative of Zodiark. And the Ascians are all deliberately and intentionally acting in ways inimical to the present life on the Source and the Shards.

Whether or not Zodiark approves of their actions or otherwise, we still need to stop the Ascians. And my position has always been that; up until Shadowbringers, I have not mentioned anything relating to judgment of Zodiark's personal actions. With Shadowbringers, I have begun to look askance at the apparent necessity of Zodiark requiring half of the population of the Ancients to stop their apocalypse, but I'm also reserving judgment until we find out why this was apparently the Only Way Forward.

And whatever Hydaelyn says or does (or did), what mattered was what we did. Hydaelyn made her wishes known, but it was the free will of the Warrior of Light and Minfilia and the Zodiac Braves of Ivalice and so on that had a tangible effect on the world. We carry out what Hydaelyn claims to be her will, because it was stuff we were going to do anyway. It reduces and alleviates suffering, which the game (and many moral systems) present as "good".

So if Hydaelyn hypothetically asks us to act in ways that increase suffering, and Zodiark asks us to act in ways that reduce suffering, then sure, we can switch patron crystals. But until then, it's unsupported by any evidence, and based entirely on wishful "what if".