Can We Talk about how PF on Aether Locks out NIN for E4S

[Taranok]

Put it this way HW launch AST was unusable in later savage fights because of gross undertuning in every aspect heals, buffs and damage, heals got fixed a few weeks after savage buffs by 3.2 and then the overtuning began.

Yeah, launch AST was garbage tier, and the class literally had only 1 viable stance until 3.4. AFAIK the devs went on record saying that they cleared all the content in Nocturnal stance for final tier because AST was absolutely useless as a barrier healer in the first 2 tiers. And they did it by massively overbuffing barriers to the point where Adloquium was flat worse than it without critting in addition to being a cast bar.

AST started HW useless, it was made....okay by 3.2ish, but it was made ridiculous at 3.4 when they decided to make damned sure everyone would be willing to take it into a raid.

That's the big thing with FFXIV though. The devs blunder around, they don't make everything work immediately, but they do at least get there in the end. ShB has some serious problems with balance and design for select classes, but on the whole ShB is the most balanced FFXIV has ever been on launch. They barely tweaked AST (in a code sense) and it's already pretty amazing, at least at 80, and it was one of the worse off classes on ShB launch. There's just the oddball scenario where certain classes flat out just weren't properly playtested, or they were in a vacuum, or insert other speculative event here. It's happened to numerous classes, such as AST, MCH/SMN, and now SMN/NIN (I haven't actually played NIN in ShB so I can't say for certain), but the point is they always get there in the end even if they get there with a broken leg.

Which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about WoW and their attempts at balance.

[HyoMinPark]

Neither SMN nor BRD left HW as a DoT management class even though they entered it as one.

Uh... DoT management was very heavily still a part of BRD in SB. Far more than it was in HW because of how Repertoire functioned in SB, and far more than it is now in ShB since Repertoire is flat % and not based off of snapshotting crit buffs.

[UnrealTai]

None of this shocks me, pre ShB I was a ninja main. (Im doing mch for now)
I wont even invite nins being one myself until they get a buff.

I WILL say however that at 451 in full materia, and no food. I was able to maintain 11.7k DPS over 5 minutes with a 27k opener, and hovered there about 20 seconds, which is higher then most roles even hit on average. But this was on a training dummy. (Also zero padding) But monk will hit 13.5k in same ilvl and materia over five minutes.

Would I trust any other nin to do close to that in content though? Nope.

At 443 in half materia the dps was only like 7k though on the dummy, same rotations, so not sure what but there seems to be some sort of scale stat here that brings nin up on the list pretty damn fast. Maybe Det, I stacked alot of it, but anything you need more DH for youre screwed. Titania would probably be a ninjas limit. Problem is with all the word of mouth issues for nin no one is going to full materia a ninja to show it could do ok. And without a crap ton of crit/det theyre right back at a crap 7k dps, meaning you cannot use skill speed or DH period just to be decent.

[Kokomi]

I wont even invite nins being one myself until they get a buff.

Let's be realistic - 90% of clear parties don't clear because players can't do mechanics or you have one or more players who are doing less than even the lowest percentile parses for their class. Sure it will make a difference whether you have a ninja or monk of equal skill if you're at 1% enrage, but it really sucks for ninja players who have to deal with this when usually it's not even their fault if the party can't clear.

And unrelated but your dummy numbers seem way off. I'm i456 overmelded with some savage pieces and I don't think I've ever hit a 20k opener. On a dummy I can probably do 11k max without food, but in an actual party trick will add 1k or more to that.

[Shurrikhan]

alot of stuff was just in a bad spot
SCH,MCH,DRG,MNK,BLM,WHM,DRK,SMN and WAR

ShB launch was alot better balance wise than SB

To be fair, we still have all but 4 dps being significantly outperformed by said 4, while there's just as great a disparity between top-performing GNBs and DRKs on some Eden 1-4 Savage fights as was the case between PLDs and WARs in Deltascape Savage. Meanwhile, WHM is simply reversed to top rDPS despite also having the greatest ease of play, trading out one healer behind for two.

[Shurrikhan]

Neither SMN nor BRD left HW as a DoT management class even though they entered it as one.

Repertoire made BRD more focused on DoT-management, not less. The only thing that went missing from BRD was Internal Release, and in its place it got about three mechanics more worth of complexity, all centered on DoTs...

And SMN didn't enter SB with particularly little to do with DoTs, either; only a little less than HW, since RS-DWT windows tied to Contagion were replaced with... Contagion.

[RenAshdoll]

Let's be realistic - 90% of clear parties don't clear because players can't do mechanics or you have one or more players who are doing less than even the lowest percentile parses for their class. Sure it will make a difference whether you have a ninja or monk of equal skill if you're at 1% enrage, but it really sucks for ninja players who have to deal with this when usually it's not even their fault if the party can't clear.

And unrelated but your dummy numbers seem way off. I'm i456 overmelded with some savage pieces and I don't think I've ever hit a 20k opener. On a dummy I can probably do 11k max without food, but in an actual party trick will add 1k or more to that.

I am at i453 with some overmelded + 1 augmented + 2 savage and the rest edensgate and I can only maintain 10.23k on a dummy for 3mins + T_T

[RyuSaarva]

I have seen extreme primal parties which lock ninja from entering.

[Drayos]

I have seen extreme primal parties which lock ninja from entering.

this is what i was going to see.

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

[BarretOblivion]

this is what i was going to see.

Ninjas, Summoners, Red Mages and bards have all seen PF Locks since Extreme releases this expansion, Ninja and Red mage seem far more common in locking out in PF but its not a Ninja or Savage only problem, they're Considered Underpowered Jobs, so people dont want them.

I haven't seen BRDs being locked out so far from any PF nor SMNs but RDM/Ninjas I do see.
Its hard for RDM/NIN just to clear because if you aren't running too many of the strong DPS you lose a death roughly on the fight for wiggle room. This can be huge if you are on lets say E3S or E4S where the DPS check is really tight. I actually just PF killed Leviathan earlier today and we had a RDM in the party. At a .7% wipe I asked the RDM to come to our server and I crafted him two 450 pieces over his 440 pieces just to find any tiny DPS upgrade from them. Mechanics were fine and their overall average gear score was fine (they had all other 450 gear and two 470 pieces) so helping out those that show they can do mecnahics I was fine with shelling out the cash for the mats to make it. It took another hour but we did clear right at the enrage cast.

I don't particularly like the idea of not allowing jobs in raids as I had to go through the same in SB when I mained SAM, it just feels really bad for those that fell in love with a job but aren't allowed to do content in PF just because of their class not being meta, however, the disparity between the solid DPS (I don't thnk any DPS is OP right now and instead are at a good baseline) and the other DPS needs to be addressed, some more than others (cough RDM, Ninja).