There's not much unique-ness when it comes to tank jobs, are there?

[MagiusNecros]

DRK is fairly widely regarded as having the best job storyline in this game bar none. So much so that the writer went on to write the main storyline for this expansion (which, in all fairness, could put a lot of main FF title storylines to shame).

I know that taste is a personal thing, but this is one of those situations where I just have to raise my eyebrows.

Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

[Absimiliard]

Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

The writer didn't get to do the lore, unfortunately. They were given what SE already had and told to write within those constraints for DRK. How they managed to take such awful lore and turn it into a great job story is beyond me, but more power to'em. The story itself is great. Ditto for Shadowbringers so far.

[Lyth]

I don't follow what your lore-related complaint is. Primarily because you haven't actually stated what it is.

If you're referring to Dark Knights as they exist in Eorzea, they unsurprisingly exist in contrast to Paladins. Paladins swear oaths to protect people. Sometimes, as is the case with the Sultansworn, their oaths are to protect people in power, or institutions. Sometimes, as we saw in Ishgard, those institutions can be corrupt. That's where Dark Knights come in. They have no oaths, and no allegiances. Their only job is to be true to their hearts, and mete out justice as they see fit. They tear down the corrupt. But in so doing, they live as outcasts.

Opposite sides of the same coin. In a way, it's a reversal of FFIV's take on the Paladin/Dark Knight duality.

If your "lore" issue is about why we don't use HP to do damage, well, that's simple. In a single player game where you control all the characters, expending HP to do damage comes at the cost of your own resources. You still have to spend MP from your healer to heal yourself up so that you can continue. In an MMO, using HP to do damage comes at the expense of your healers' resources, instead of your own. Optimising your dps would come at the expense of your healers. It probably wouldn't go down well. And with the removal of Convert this expansion, we're unlikely to see actions which go down this route.

Speaking of Runic, I think this was a bit of a missed opportunity with Dark Missionary. If we're going to have a magic-only raidwide defense, I'd rather it be a sparkly absorb with a better ability name.

[Absimiliard]

I don't follow what your lore-related complaint is. Primarily because you haven't actually stated what it is.

If you're referring to Dark Knights as they exist in Eorzea, they unsurprisingly exist in contrast to Paladins. Paladins swear oaths to protect people. Sometimes, as is the case with the Sultansworn, their oaths are to protect people in power, or institutions. Sometimes, as we saw in Ishgard, those institutions can be corrupt. That's where Dark Knights come in. They have no oaths, and no allegiances. Their only job is to be true to their hearts, and mete out justice as they see fit. They tear down the corrupt. But in so doing, they live as outcasts.

Opposite sides of the same coin. In a way, it's a reversal of FFIV's take on the Paladin/Dark Knight duality.

Speaking of Runic, I think this was a bit of a missed opportunity with Dark Missionary. If we're going to have a magic-only raidwide defense, I'd rather it be a sparkly absorb with a better ability name.

The major lore complaint most people seem to have about DRK is that it isn't evil. The vast majority of Dark Knight's appearances throughout the Final Fantasy franchise have had it either downright evil or immensely corruptive. Even Cecil wasn't able to use its power without it eating away at his soul.

As for Runic? Yeah, you ain't wrong. Dark Missionary truly was a missed opportunity.

[Razard]

The major lore complaint most people seem to have about DRK is that it isn't evil. The vast majority of Dark Knight's appearances throughout the Final Fantasy franchise have had it either downright evil or immensely corruptive. Even Cecil wasn't able to use its power without it eating away at his soul.

But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul". It's outright stated that he couldn't defeat the forces of Darkness while using Dark abilities. The rest of DRKs appearances where as a Neutral Job (Including, hilariously, FF10-2 with all it's J-pop bubbly nonsense). Also you have the whole "The player character is a famous hero" so the only thing they could get away with was Fantasy Greatsword wielding Batman. See also, Thieves.

Is this what we are reduced to now? Complaining that the Job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough?

Like steal Rune Knights from FF11 and Celes job from FF6 identity and rename it into Dark Knight so that they can go "DA DERKNESSS DERKI DERK!". Like we're just missing Runic. All we'd really need to do is just allow Dark mind to recover some HP and maybe some MP when they are hit by a magical attack and we could just rename the skill.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please sit down before you hurt yourself.

[Absimiliard]

But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul".

Did you actually play Final Fantasy IV? The game outright tells you what being a dark knight does to people. Cecil himself even lampshades the fact that wielding the dark sword was taking a toll on him. King Baron further adds to this by informing us that those who failed to master the dark sword had their souls consumed by it and became little better than mindless killing machines. He then goes on to state that even whose who mastered the art would lose their souls somewhere down the line. While FFX-2's dark knight dress sphere is neutral, the lore behind it is that it has a corrupting influence. Said influence simply does not present itself in-game. FFXI's dark knight is also presented as something that can erode the mind and soul. War of the Lions brings us both Dark Knight and Fell Knight, both of which are stated to corrupt the user irreversibly. Even Dissidia makes mention of the fact that Cecil isn't completely comfortable using his dark side due of the inherent risks associated with that power. As for Leon... can we even really count him? His job title may have been Dark Knight, but he didn't actually seem to have any of the abilities that would come to be associated with it.

What a lot of people don't realize is that Final Fantasy XIV actually does have its own version of this. Dark Knights in FFXIV lore can actually be consumed by their own power if they don't control their emotions properly. It makes no mention of consuming the soul or anything like that (to my knowledge, anyway), but it can completely rob them of the person they are. The process is irreversible once complete - the dark knight becomes little more than a killing machine driven by its uncontrolled emotions, uncaring who or what gets hurt over the course of its rampage. The line they walk is razor thin.

Now, having said all that, I would like to pose a question: Why is preferring the job's less kind iterations something only an edgy 15 year old would do? Some of the best stories ever written were those where the hero fell, sometimes even becoming something far worse than what they'd been fighting against. The depiction of dark knights as slowly losing themselves in exchange for the power they harness is one that adds a sort of gravitas - their actions, having both meaning and consequences, are a burden they must bear for so long as they continue to wield wicked power, even in pursuit of peace.

Disclaimer: This is a devil's advocate piece. I am not in any way opposed to DRK's lore in FFXIV. Could it have been handled better? Sure, but that doesn't make it bad.

[Seku]

But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul". It's outright stated that he couldn't defeat the forces of Darkness while using Dark abilities. The rest of DRKs appearances where as a Neutral Job (Including, hilariously, FF10-2 with all it's J-pop bubbly nonsense). Also you have the whole "The player character is a famous hero" so the only thing they could get away with was Fantasy Greatsword wielding Batman. See also, Thieves.

Is this what we are reduced to now? Complaining that the Job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough?


You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please sit down before you hurt yourself.

Actually I was. The person I replied to said that SE can do whatever they want with the job. I responded and agreed that they could, and that they obviously ripped off Rune Fencer and Celes.

And yes, complaining that the job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough is a valid thing (Though it's probably the egiest it's ever been with that 50-60 storyline), since DRK in almost all of it's iterations has been about weakening it's foe(s), as well as killing itself to do damage only to get said hp back via drain abilities, dealing more damage while weaken, **dealing damage**, regardless of the character's own personal alignment. In short, I don't care what Cecil's goals, aspirations, or motivations were. Nor does the power that he wields. Nor should you.

They done messed the job (At least from it's original design) up that SE established over many games. End of story. Now go back to playing your DERK Knight before you hurt yourself. Hope you enjoy it.

Would you care to provide a direct reference in FFXIV on how a Dark Knight's power can rob them of their individuality and turn them into a killing machine?

I have both lore books and a transcript of every single line from the Dark Knight questline, and I'm struggling to find support for your claim.

Maybe not rob them of their individuality, but you do almost become a mindless killing machine in the level 50 quest, which causes the player character (Us) to control the darkness or be controlled by it. Ie: We go to whitebrim and basically slay a bunch of Knights (or KO) before having to fight ourselves, our inner darkness, to regain control and learn to control the Derknessss, our souls, and our minds.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Our_Answer (All quest trasncripts can be found there, including the journal which basically shows you (the player character) is going insane and are no longer wanting to serve or save people, but instead only kill.)

And

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWcCoqf5MBY == a entire video for the first part where you can easily see that Fray (which is really you by the way, the real Fray was dead long ago~) 100% killed a bunch of (possibly / more than likely / 90% sure) innocent Knights before we get to go and beat ourselves down in a derk derk moment because your character lost their mind (really, they are talking to themselves and imaging a dead person is there as themselves because we needed a mentor. We literately stole someone else identity.....and are wanting to kill people because they annoy us with their tasks).

And then to further support Asbimilard. This is a direct quote from the journal entry.

"Darkness dwells within us all, but few are forced to confront it as you are. One moment, Fray stands before you, and in the next, it is your twin. As you wrestle for control with your darkside, the voices of Whitebrim Front cry out to you in support, even as your own voice belittles your struggle. And then...as quickly as it began, it ends. Your soul is in your keeping once more."

In short, by using the Dark Knight Job stone we get tainted by the darkness and through the course of our leveling we teach ourselves how to deal with it. Or as "Fray" *cough (ourselves) cough* tells us, without proper training "It can hurt". Basically meaning that without learning how to control it, we lose control and start beating people up (Much like warrior, but with a cause other than hulking out on roids. I mean don't you want to kill a NPC or two that sends you on your 1 billionth fetch quest (I know I do) )

[Razard]

Actually I was. The person I replied to said that SE can do whatever they want with the job. I responded and agreed that they could, and that they obviously ripped off Rune Fencer and Celes.

Why? Because it uses a greatsword? I'm sorry to tell you this but big swords have been a Dark Knight thing since ever. It certainly doesn't absorb magic.

And yes, complaining that the job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough is a valid thing

No it isn't

since DRK in almost all of it's iterations has been about weakening it's foe(s), as well as killing itself to do damage only to get said hp back via drain abilities, dealing more damage while weaken, **dealing damage**, regardless of the character's own personal alignment. In short, I don't care what Cecil's goals, aspirations, or motivations were. Nor does the power that he wields. Nor should you.

And the point was thoroughly missed that day.

They done messed the job (At least from it's original design) up that SE established over many games. End of story. Now go back to playing your DERK Knight before you hurt yourself. Hope you enjoy it.

Oh my god why is FF4s version of the Dark Knight such a betrayal of how it was established from the previous version. Where is it's low level white magic?

I can do this too.

Now sit down.

[Shurrikhan]

Good storyline sure. As far as actual Dark Knight Lore? Its ass.

Why should the lore be constrained to former iterations here or elsewhere? If it's cohesive and compelling, then that's that.

We can obviously argue that there are some missed opportunities between even XIV's lore for DRK and the mechanics then given to them, but we probably have just as much DRK lore from XIV specifically as from other iterations combined, so why judge only according to fidelity with the bits and pieces of the other half when we now have something more cohesive and -- to many -- at least as compelling?