[Spoilers] Death and reincarnation

[Kokomi]

One major thing we find out from ShB is that we, the WoL, were likely originally an Ascian that Emet-Selch knew before our soul was shattered into 14 pieces. Furthermore, with each rejoining our soul becomes closer to its original form. Given that the Ascians are thousands of years old while we ourselves are not immortal, this means that the pieces of our soul have been going through a cycle of death and rebirth ever since the Sundering.

It was confirmed in the optional dialogue with Emet that this is true for other Ascians as well - when they elevate lesser Ascians to office, for example Nabriales, they prefer to do it with a fragment of their original soul, although it's possible to achieve with an unrelated individual.

So now we know that there are a bunch of shattered, former Ascians whose soul fragments remain intact even after death (unless destroyed via the white auracite method). What about someone who wasn't one of the original Ascians, that is most of humanity? Do we know one way or another whether their soul survives death? If yes, then we get into some weird existential situations like, what exactly constitutes a unique person and does anyone really die? So right now I'm leaning toward no and that the Ascians are special in this.

I'm curious where they're going to go with this and whether there's any previous lore on the difference between aether and souls, what exactly happens after someone dies, and how new souls are created. Even our method for killing Ascians is starting to seem mysterious.

[Alleluia]

Regarding lore about aether and souls, I think Urianger said something this expansion about ghosts really being a soul core that's remained whole in the lifestream and is interacting with the physical plane? And that pixies are essentially this, but of children? Fuath are as well, but the specification is drowning deaths.

This implies to me that aether is the energy involved, but "soul" is a descriptor of the structure the aether is formed into? And that structure can be mixed up using the same aether material into a new form, ie child's soul "core" staying whole in the lifestream but remanifesting as a pixie in form.

[LineageRazor]

It's my theory that there's two kinds of souls, now. "Old souls", which are fragments of shattered Ancients' souls, and "New souls", that are borne from the Lifestream. Old souls are incompatible with the Lifestream, and rather than dispersing, just hang around until they're born into new bodies.

For new souls, the USUAL thing is for them to disperse upon death. Occasionally, however, they manage to remain intact after death, and can even form physical bodies for themselves. The Scions did this, essentially forming bodies exactly like their originals. The Pixies are the result of this, as well, and likely ghosts are a sort of half-assed version of the process.

Because Ascians souls aren't compatible with the Lifestream, I also think that the Lifestream was created by Zodiark, and that it, and all of the life that emerged from it, was the life the Council of Thirteen hoped to sacrifice to bring back their sacrificed friends.

[Angellos]

It's all interesting, really. I also wonder about Minfilia. We know that she's continually re-born - but she is most certainly a follower, or creation of Hydaelyn and not Zodiark. Is Minfilia the closest thing we have to a 'light Ascian'? Are there any other beings like Minfilia? IS she a type of 'Ascian' tempered by Hydaelyn? It's said that Ascians can change the way that they look... Minfilia changed appearance when she became Ryne. I always wondered if there were ancients tempered by Hydaelyn that survived the sundering, or were 'whole' again.

[Kidria]

I wouldn't say we or Minfilia are Ascians, but definitely reincarnated Ancients, souls cycling through time. In Minfilia's case, I wonder if she was always so in tune with Hydaelyn was because her Ancient soul might have been one of the summoners, or one of the ones who speared the faction to summon Hydaelyn? I'd imagine though that there were no unsundered tempered of Hydaelyn left, else She wouldn't need to adopt sundered Champions. In a way, I wonder if there were ANY tempered by Hydaelyn; what little of the Ancients were left, half gave themselves up to summon Her, so the other half were all Zodiark's tempered.

I believe Ryne's appearance can be deduced to have been her natural appearance before her awakening as the Oracle of Light. It was Minfilia's "parting gift"--to let her be herself again.

[Kokomi]

snip

This makes sense - had forgot about the bit where Ascian souls retreat into the rift instead of returning to the lifestream. In that case, is the population of Ancients fixed (one has to die for a new one to be born), or otherwise where do new Ancient souls come from?

Along the same lines, for the "Zodiark created the lifestream" theory to work, new aether needs to be created at some point. Otherwise, how would this plan of sacrificing something he created back to himself result in a net gain, unless the lifestream can somehow generate aether from a source other than Zodiark?

[Iscah]

In a way, I wonder if there were ANY tempered by Hydaelyn; what little of the Ancients were left, half gave themselves up to summon Her, so the other half were all Zodiark's tempered.

I don't think they said that. We know some sided with Hydaelyn, and some with Zodiark, and they were portrayed in the mural as equal numbers. That doesn't mean it was the entire population or an equal split.

[LineageRazor]

This makes sense - had forgot about the bit where Ascian souls retreat into the rift instead of returning to the lifestream. In that case, is the population of Ancients fixed (one has to die for a new one to be born), or otherwise where do new Ancient souls come from?

That's what I theorize, yes - because the Ancients are immortal, but still have children, there has to be something limiting uncontrollable population growth. Even if children are rare, eternity is an awfully long time...

Along the same lines, for the "Zodiark created the lifestream" theory to work, new aether needs to be created at some point. Otherwise, how would this plan of sacrificing something he created back to himself result in a net gain, unless the lifestream can somehow generate aether from a source other than Zodiark?

Zodark's new life, the Lifestream, did a marvelous job of cleaning up the mess the Calamity had left behind. The world was lifeless and uninhabitable. The Lifestream rejuvenated the world, made it fertile again. Take it away, and the world would STILL be fertile for the sorts of life that existed on it before the Calamity. If I'm correct and the Lifestream was Zodiark's creation, remember that there were plants and creatures around before Zodiark created the Lifestream. These plants and creatures would likely be similar to the Ancients in their nature.

That's the net gain. The Lifestream did the work it was created to do. Dispose of it, and that work is still done, only now you have the population back to enjoy it.

[Kokomi]

Zodark's new life, the Lifestream, did a marvelous job of cleaning up the mess the Calamity had left behind. The world was lifeless and uninhabitable. The Lifestream rejuvenated the world, made it fertile again. Take it away, and the world would STILL be fertile for the sorts of life that existed on it before the Calamity. If I'm correct and the Lifestream was Zodiark's creation, remember that there were plants and creatures around before Zodiark created the Lifestream. These plants and creatures would likely be similar to the Ancients in their nature.

That's the net gain. The Lifestream did the work it was created to do. Dispose of it, and that work is still done, only now you have the population back to enjoy it.

There's still the question of why Zodiark made intelligent life instead of just plants and animals. What were the Ancients even thinking? "Let's create new life in the image of our own souls, except it's okay to kill them since they'll die in such a short span of time anyway"? Isn't that a bit cruel? (Seeing parallels to how most individuals living in affluent parts of the world don't care about factory farming practices, though.)

Supposing they truly had no choice and either this new life or the sacrificed Ancients had to go, I'm curious why the Hydaelyn faction disagreed.

We don't have the full story and it's bothering me.

[Alleo]

I believe Ryne's appearance can be deduced to have been her natural appearance before her awakening as the Oracle of Light. It was Minfilia's "parting gift"--to let her be herself again.

In the german version its outright stated by her that this is how she looked before the oracle part happened. I was a bit surprised that they did not say it that directly in the english version either.

The whole part about death and lifestream really gets more confusing to me as the time goes on. I mean even the Ancient still died it was just not something that happened often. So did the lifestream already exist at that time? Or were they all like the Ascians and they never died completely and just took over a new body? (But then children did exist thus new ones were born..if old ones never truly died then they should have overpopulated the planet at some time)

Also now we suddenly have a big amount of fairy races that are the souls of those that drowned or died as babies so the souls seemingly can go on much more often than I thought. Especially since the Fuath wanted to make us one of them by drowning us, which means that its quite certain that we would have ended that way?

So whats so special about these souls that they can just turn around and stop becoming part of the lifestream? Why are they able to do (especially as babies) that and others cant?