Patch 5.05 DPS balance discussion Nin+Dnc

[TaiyouSeishin]

Honestly, I do not want homogenisation. Those that do... well good for you. I think the balance is not perfect and could use some addressing but people seem to want SMN/RDM closer to BLM. The problem is that if you do this, there is no need to take BLM to anything. You’d gimp yourself by doing so. Your better off taking RDM/SMN. Utility has a price and even if it is not needed, you can’t just magically wish the utility away. Making everything the same is boring and stale. If I wanted that, I would main a tank or healer and I only play those jobs to get clusters and make money.

On the same token, if the gap is too wide, why would you bring the utility. The utility is situational, and to use it is an even bigger drop in dps. No one plans to have deaths. So planning and balancing around a raise...

Honestly i dont like the idea of pure dps classes, for the reason that it doesnt seem like this game is meant for it. But a "closer gap" isnt going to ensure one beats another. If a group is going to maximize damage output, it dont matter how much utility you have, if taking you is a dps loss...its a dps loss. Maybe utility they put in the game is just TOO powerful

[DewClaw]

Yes, I played RDM last tier and wanted to main it this tier. With the raids being so caster-unfriendly, and the fact that RDM is only slightly better DPS-wise than DNC, I have had increasing struggles find parties for raiding. The DPS checks are a struggle, and when I DO clear, I'm blue parsing. So I know I'm not just a horrible DPS, I'm just in starter gear.

Added on top of that, parties are starting to lock RDM out of their clear groups because our DPS is so poor. I don't understand the necessity of nerfing classes to the point where you can't clear a fight if you have two "Wrong" classes in the party. I don't mind being the lowest DPS because my raise is such a great utility (which it's not when I'm trying to farm stuff - all it does is blow me out of mana), but I do mind lagging 3k behind.

[Marianno]

@DewClaw I still have to question what the true numerical difference is between BLM and RDM/NIN. In-game people are saying that it’s 2k, same with NIN. On the forums people are saying RDM is 1600DPS behind BLM and NIN is 3000k behind BLM and other melee. Frankly, I don’t know the exact numbers because they seem to change with every discussion that’s posted or had about the topic. I still believe that this is a case of people wanting utility based jobs to do the same damage as personal damage jobs that bring nothing. Stormblood expansion was a good example of what happened when the DPS difference between the jobs was small...jobs with no utility were not even considered. If you want too deal big damage, play a selfish DPS job. If you want party buffs, play a support job. People complained about selfish jobs not having the damage to justify bringing them, now one of the selfish jobs does and soon to be the other and people are still not happy.

[Uliq]

@DewClaw I still have to question what the true numerical difference is between BLM and RDM/NIN. In-game people are saying that it’s 2k, same with NIN. On the forums people are saying RDM is 1600DPS behind BLM and NIN is 3000k behind BLM and other melee. Frankly, I don’t know the exact numbers because they seem to change with every discussion that’s posted or had about the topic. I still believe that this is a case of people wanting utility based jobs to do the same damage as personal damage jobs that bring nothing. Stormblood expansion was a good example of what happened when the DPS difference between the jobs was small...jobs with no utility were not even considered. If you want too deal big damage, play a selfish DPS job. If you want party buffs, play a support job. People complained about selfish jobs not having the damage to justify bringing them, now one of the selfish jobs does and soon to be the other and people are still not happy.

IT's hard to exactly tell you the difference in dps as it's per min the fight last. Also people could be talking about personal dps or raid dps. As for raid contribution currently (I believe) ninja is actually ahead of RDM. (I beleive don't quote me though) The problem isn't that EVERYONE wants big numbers, big numbers are required to clear content right now. As for the wrong classes for content. IT's supposed to be set so that any team composition can clear the content but at current the balance is way too off for this to be true. The overall raid dps difference in classes doesn't allow you to tangle two low classes together and hope to clear without perfection and over gearing, and not just the low jobs. The entire party has to make up for the losses per low dps. Low DPS at this point don't meet minimum dps requirements for endgame raids. Of course through coincidental design that won't be a problem in a few weeks. But the fixes have to happen so that this doesn't continue in future content.

[Marianno]

@Uliq Perhaps there should be fixes but I don’t think it will be the fixes that people may want in my opinion. Rereading the live letter, it seems the devs are going the route of simplifying with minimal buffs. At least that is how I read over the translation. I think there will be a great oversimplification of certain jobs and then minor potency buffs for some and minor nerfs for some. Looking at SE’s track record with the healers and tanks, I do not want any of the DPS jobs to be oversimplified and homogenised. I like the idea that some jobs are very difficult to play. Although I’d never want to rack my brain over them, I believe that simplifying the DPS jobs is never a good thing. Now we will likely see SMN/NIN get simplified and get minor buffs maybe. There may be buffs for others etc. though I don’t proclaim to know what the DEVs will be doing. I’d rather not have more people complain about the simplicity of jobs and then proceed to complain more about how it’s brain dead easy. I see enough of that with MNK in-game.

[Uliq]

@Uliq Perhaps there should be fixes but I don’t think it will be the fixes that people may want in my opinion. Rereading the live letter, it seems the devs are going the route of simplifying with minimal buffs. At least that is how I read over the translation. I think there will be a great oversimplification of certain jobs and then minor potency buffs for some and minor nerfs for some. Looking at SE’s track record with the healers and tanks, I do not want any of the DPS jobs to be oversimplified and homogenised. I like the idea that some jobs are very difficult to play. Although I’d never want to rack my brain over them, I believe that simplifying the DPS jobs is never a good thing. Now we will likely see SMN/NIN get simplified and get minor buffs maybe. There may be buffs for others etc. though I don’t proclaim to know what the DEVs will be doing. I’d rather not have more people complain about the simplicity of jobs and then proceed to complain more about how it’s brain dead easy. I see enough of that with MNK in-game.

over simplifying ninja could be a good or bad thing. Incorperation of Mudra's into combos will allow ninja to stat skill speed, but that isn't going to make ninja brain dead. They will have to actually rework ninja from scratch for it to go that route. Ninja currently is just a constant sequence of button presses, those buttons still looks like they will need to be pressed regardless, in the same order. I don't know what other changes they will implement but if they don't remove half my abilities it'll stay about the same. As for buffs. I just want my minimal dps required to beat a savage back so I don't have to wait two months in to run content.

Currently ninja is all abilities and 4 weaponskills, techniacally. and for every button they remove they have to replace. the fact that mudras will stay mudras and not be turned directly into jutsu (From what they said) means it's not going to make things any easier. Just remove that stupid bunny or make it reset my timers to 5 secs.

[TaiyouSeishin]

@DewClaw I still have to question what the true numerical difference is between BLM and RDM/NIN. In-game people are saying that it’s 2k, same with NIN. On the forums people are saying RDM is 1600DPS behind BLM and NIN is 3000k behind BLM and other melee. Frankly, I don’t know the exact numbers because they seem to change with every discussion that’s posted or had about the topic. I still believe that this is a case of people wanting utility based jobs to do the same damage as personal damage jobs that bring nothing. Stormblood expansion was a good example of what happened when the DPS difference between the jobs was small...jobs with no utility were not even considered. If you want too deal big damage, play a selfish DPS job. If you want party buffs, play a support job. People complained about selfish jobs not having the damage to justify bringing them, now one of the selfish jobs does and soon to be the other and people are still not happy.

Its not that they want to do the same pdps as pure dps roles, they just want to not be so far behind.

Wether it was SEs intention or not, there is a set up they are practically forcing you to have. One melee, one ranged, one caster. The 4th is raid choice. However, with the way some fights are geared, it is normally always 2 melee. So you have a filled raid. Could you have just 4 black mages? Sure. 4 monks? I guess you could, but youd be missing out on the party buff they have implemented.

This means, that more often than not, classes compete with other classes in the same role. Yes you COULD take a smn instead for that raise, incase the healers BOTH die you can save the party. Except you are raising them to minimal health, and minimal mana, so the chance of them dying again is high. Most people, would rather just reset and start over, and just take something that isnt a dps loss.

[TaiyouSeishin]

*such a heavy dps loss (damn phone and mobile site)

[DewClaw]

IT's hard to exactly tell you the difference in dps as it's per min the fight last. Also people could be talking about personal dps or raid dps. As for raid contribution currently (I believe) ninja is actually ahead of RDM. (I beleive don't quote me though) The problem isn't that EVERYONE wants big numbers, big numbers are required to clear content right now. As for the wrong classes for content. IT's supposed to be set so that any team composition can clear the content but at current the balance is way too off for this to be true. The overall raid dps difference in classes doesn't allow you to tangle two low classes together and hope to clear without perfection and over gearing, and not just the low jobs. The entire party has to make up for the losses per low dps. Low DPS at this point don't meet minimum dps requirements for endgame raids. Of course through coincidental design that won't be a problem in a few weeks. But the fixes have to happen so that this doesn't continue in future content.

I cannot repeat this enough! One-thousand times yes. They wanted to reduce class synergy so that a handful of classes wouldn't be "meta" in raid comps. What has happened is that 2 (or in some cases 3) classes have been locked out of completing content together, creating an anti-synergy. An exceptional RDM and DNC could possibly clear content (If they brought two high-end DPS to make up for their lack of damage), but your average two players in a random pug party aren't going to have the damage required to do it. While I agree that savage content should be hard, it should also be accessible to people other than the top 5% of the playerbase (or those three classes in particular).

I don't want to have to just give up and play mnk because I can beat my damage on RDM just by breathing in raid.

[Marianno]

SB again was a good indication of when we had support jobs that were 400-500 DPS away from selfish jobs...the selfish jobs were still locked out. I had too actively wait just too clear or experience content when it was not relevant anymore or when people felt that they did not care about the “hinderance” of having a personal DPS job in the party. People are saying this is will not be a repeat of SB but we all know how that turned out for BLM and SMN in HW/SB. Then NIN autolocking a spot on the parties was happening since TA’s inception. Perhaps it’s time too do away with TA and possibly embolden and devotion. Give those jobs something else worthwhile.