Something about the new Ascian lore

[kidalutz]

The writing was fine, as far as I see it. Emet-Selch made for a very compelling antagonist and the Ascians, as some of us have been saying for years, had goals that were beyond simple villainy for the sake of villainy. Given how impressive their society and powers happened to be it isn't a huge shock that those remaining would wish to see it restored at any cost. Especially when they're practically immortal and have felt the loss and isolation of outliving every single person they used to know and care for.

Hydaelyn being a Primal makes her a major threat and I hope we end up taking both Hydaelyn and Zodiark down at some point in the future. That way the reins of history are placed firmly in the hands of man rather than dictated by false deities.

I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

[Absimiliard]

I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

[Kokomi]

This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin.

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world.

Agreed that Sundering is genocide if it was done unwillingly. We still don't know what exactly happened back then, though.

[Absimiliard]

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

Therein lies the conundrum. It's becoming increasingly apparent that this is may no longer be the matter of good vs. evil that some people would like for it to be, and I personally hope SE continues the course on this. I find the story much more compelling now that I know the Ascians may have had a good reason for what they were trying to do. There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selch and his ilk.

All that said, I do agree that certain things are unequivocally wrong - from our perspective. I know it's a common trope for alien races to inexplicably adhere (sometimes loosely) to human standards, but we've little reason to believe this would actually be the case. Our morals are shaped by our environment. The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours. That's not to say they haven't been warped by their ages of sorrow - Emet-Selch himself makes it readily apparent that they have.

[Kokomi]

There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selk and his ilk.

I feel bad enough that we had to kill Emet-Selch. No more please.

The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours.

Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

[Absimiliard]

Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable? That in and of itself would be making a judgment call based on morals. It's super easy to get drawn into circular thing with this sort of thing because of how fascinating it is, I find. In any case, I would say we can understand them to a point. It's obvious they're driven by the same range of emotions we are, though they do appear to have significantly more self-control most of the time. The disconnect comes into play once you introduce their sheer power, vast knowledge, and unlimited lifespans into the equation. There is no telling how those factors would alter perceptions. There's also no telling what kind of psychological damage watching the downfall of your entire civilization would cause.

[Kokomi]

Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable?

Each individual person does. That's why ethics exists. I said it earlier, but I honestly don't know if Emet-Selch was right from a moral standpoint (part of it due to being a thorny moral dilemma, other part being we just don't have enough information, like how many Ascians are being brought back?). That makes me uncomfortable, so I'm hoping Square gives us an easy out where we find out that resurrecting the dead Ascians was impossible after all, or something like that.

[kidalutz]

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

again dont have the whole story we just have half the story.