Something about the new Ascian lore

[Sakei]

Well, i don't agree

I play in french, so it's not exactly the same as the english dialog, and it could be an error in traduction. But in french Hythlodaeus clearly say that Emet-Selch was fond the the original owner of our soul.

Thank you for the input. That is a clear deviation from the English version. Some could see it, as you can read from the others as well, but it could only be implied in the English version. I love seeing these translation differences. Sometimes they can help you understand the intent better.

Hythlodaeus: A stray thought would have been enough, "Hythlodaeus will realize the truth," for example. We were... close friends once, you see...

This is the only mention of Friendship in English. As you can possibly see, the "we" is subjective. One could take it to mean the WoL, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, or just Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch. For that matter, it could refer to Hythlodaeus and the WoL and not Emet-Selch.

[Sakei]

Well yes its kinda a bit open to interpretation but maybe all were friends? The shade to him and us and maybe Emet to us too. Otherwise his reaction at seeing the 14th at the rejoining with Ardbert would be a bit strange. If we are not his friends why would he be so shocked? If he did not like the 14th wouldnt he be more hateful instead of trying to tell himself that it cant be that way?

My interpretation from that encounter was that he didn't like us much before. I figured that Emet-Selch was just not very happy once he realized we were still causing him trouble in this incarnation too. He seems more frustrated than anything. It's like he has an equal that he knows he can't reason with. He thought he was free of this person, only to have him/her show up in front of him.

The Quote is:

No... It can't be... Bah, a trick of the light. You are a broken husk, nothing more.

For me, I think it works well for an enemy you though was long vanquished. I concede that it does work equally well for a friend.

[Ein_Seaki]

I play in Japanese, but in Japanese it also says that Emet-Selch was deeply attached to the person from who the WoL did inherit his soul.

エメトセルクも、（彼・彼女）には思い入れがあるだろうから

The key world would be "思い入れ"

[Kokomi]

Sorry for helping revive an old thread, but after reading through ObsidianFire has brought up some great points.

So far, all primals we have fought only give back the aether they have absorbed when they are killed. Which suggests that if the Convocation of Thirteen really wanted those souls back (or at least free to be reborn most likely) they would have had to kill Zoidark, not provide him with even more aether down the line.

I can see non-tempered Ancients parsing that logic and realizing that the Convocation of Thirteen is essentially planning on sacrificing their progeny to Zodiark to hopefully get back the souls of the dead and deciding they did not like that plan. And so they came up with an entirely different operating system for a primal. One that while it did absorb aether when people died also automatically would give that aether up to be reborn again eventually.

I think this is a compelling possibility and hope it's true (keeping in mind we don't actually know enough to confirm/deny most of the speculation here). We know that the Ascians who summoned Zodiark became tempered by him, and that they then supported this morally sketchy plan of sacrificing their children to Zodiark to bring back those previously sacrificed. At this point, the world was still not sundered so we have every reason to believe that the "new human life" would still be full-blown immortals, so I can't see how any Ascian would agree to this unless they were tempered. At best, it creates an endless cycle of sacrifices to Zodiark.

Then there's the issue of what the un-tempered summoners of Hydaelyn were trying to accomplish. After Shadowbringers, we can all agree that forcibly rejoining souls is the same as ending the lives of the reflections (we as the WoL don't have any memories from the first 7 rejoinings, so we can conclude that those once separate individuals are now gone). Applying this logic, sundering originally whole souls is just as bad, since the shards don't retain any memories of the original person. An explanation for why Hydaelyn did this was that it was necessary to stop Zodiark, even if it meant killing everyone except for Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus via sundering.

[Kokomi]

So I can see them summoning Hydaelyn already knowing they were going to be Sundered when she dealt with Zodiark. Even the Ancients who didn't help them summon Hydaelyn and ended up being Sundered would at least not get stuck in Zoidark but end up in the reincarnation cycle.

This exactly. So now the situation stands: 75% of the original Ascians are trapped inside Zodiark; 25% minus 3 are shattered and are repeatedly reincarnated from the lifestream, in this way retaining something of their original immortality (WoL falls into this category); and then we have Laha/Emet/Elidibus. Maybe Emet was doing a bit of lying by omission and Hydaelyn didn't sunder anyone unwillingly. I have absolutely no evidence for this but maybe the remaining Ascians except those three agreed to being shattered and reincarnated.

Then the endgame becomes freeing the Ascians who were absorbed by Zodiark and letting them be reincarnated in the lifestream. Hopefully this happens when we defeat Zodiark for good. The one thing I haven't figured out with this theory is what will happen with the Rejoinings. We know that forced rejoining = bad but also that the original sundering was bad. Furthermore, WoL is already 9/14 rejoined and that more are coming is foreshadowed (Unukalhai). Would a peaceful Rejoining (this may be possible, but Emet & co. couldn't see it due to tempering) necessarily mean we obtain true immortality again? I don't want that but leaving things as they are where everyone on the Source is half rejoined doesn't exactly wrap things up nicely.

I'm hoping this isn't an us vs. them (Ascians) story. The new life on the shards are descended from them and we ourselves are basically all but confirmed to be a reincarnated piece of one.

[TinyRedLeaf]

It's fairly implausible for the WoL to remember past lives, let alone those of his split counterparts. Can you remember your past lives in real-life? Why should it work differently for the WoL? His Echo visions to date have always been of other people, not himself nor his former incarnations.

[Nightsword]

Given that Zodiark is a Primal, it's more likely the ancients souls (and aether) were fully devoured by Zodiark when it was summoned and it was a lie Zodiark told it's tempered followers about being able to resurrect the them. Remember once a summoned Primal is created, the aether used is gone and it feeds off the surrounding aether. So destroying Zodiark will not free those souls, as they should be gone for good, if Zodiark is held the same as modern Primals. My guess is the non-tempered ancients saw exactly this at the time with Zodiark and if Zodiark was allowed to continue to exist there would have been no life left on the planet, so they created Hydaelyn as a protector. It's worth noting while all signs in the story point to Zodiark being like the Beast Primals in it's creation, an idea given form as a summon, it's possible Hydaelyn is a transformed Primal like Shiva or thordan, an idea imbued into a living being. Which may explain why she is different from Zodiark and can exist without appearing to be feeding on the ambient aether after her initial transformation and why she behaves differently than most Primals.

[Ilenya]

Given that Zodiark is a Primal, it's more likely the ancients souls (and aether) were fully devoured by Zodiark when it was summoned and it was a lie Zodiark told it's tempered followers about being able to resurrect the them.

Did Zodiark say he could do it? I know Emet said they were going to try, but not that Zodiark said he could.

[Nightsword]

Did Zodiark say he could do it? I know Emet said they were going to try, but not that Zodiark said he could.

We were told that he had told his followers that he could do it but needed fuel for it, hence the sacrifice of the new life being needed.

[Kokomi]

snip

It's definitely possible that their aether was used up in averting the calamity/bringing back life to the star and they're gone for good. I guess then it boils down to the tempered Ascians becoming puppets of Zodiark who must be stopped, and their whole backstory was just meant for us to feel sorry for them. It does lessen the significance of us having once been an Ascian if there's nothing we can do for them, though.

Edit: Found this from Hythlodaeus' dialogue:

The Council decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark. In return, He would return to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength.

Seems suspicious. Given that this wasn't a case of wishful thinking with no basis and Zodiark was indeed working through his tempering to encourage something that couldn't happen, then we have a pretty clear cut Zodiark = bad, Hydaelyn = good story. It would be so ironic that Emet-Selch is named after the "Angel of Truth" from FFXII when he was being deceived the whole time.