Min ilvl setting and people saying this game is too east

[Fynlar]

I thought these people were claiming the incentive was the challenge itself and the rewards were meaningless? For example running The Burn at min ilvl vs a party of full i400s is a totally different animal, at min ilvl mechanic failures will kill

Well, that's not what I'm claiming. Doubt it's what most people are claiming either. People usually want to be tangibly rewarded for performing challenging feats in games.

People also will usually follow the path of least resistance. It's precisely why people are dropping their ilvl for alliance roulette, for instance.

[HWalsh]

Such is the plague of people in literally every MMO I've seen (even WoW, the so-called 'king' of endgame content).

99 times out of 100, these people have also not cleared the current endgame.

Here the complaint goes "I don't have no mounts b/c I don't like no mounts and I can't get no savage because I don't ever work a schedule and PF sux but I easy-clear all the things and never get loot and also have no parses proving that I've done anything ever because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

On WoW it goes "Endgame sux b/c it's all about raids and the raidz are all ezpz even though I've never cleared anything above LFR it must be an anomaly on my profile or I'm really on an alt so don't judge what my profile says and I iz hardcorez uberMythicz raiders when you must be a baddie b/c you've only cleared 4/8 by the end of week 3 and this is all because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

In SWTOR it goes "All the operations are way too ezpz even though I've cleared none of them b/c they're too ezpz and I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

TL;DR - People who do this can be defined with a simple, five-letter word: troll

Wow.

You're one of those, "Raiding is the ONLY way to play! If you're not raiding then you're doing it wrong! Only raiders should get stuff! Raiding deserves to be the only badge of honor! Get raiding, get parsed, or GTFO plebs!" Types aren't you?

Never considered that other player types deserve special things too did you? Rewards for roleplaying. Rewards for community building. Rewards for teaching newbies basic mechanics. How about a reward for maxing out a retainer or maxing out a crafting or gathering job?

Oh wait, you don't want those because, in your mind, raiding IS the end game.

[Sub-Xero]

Wow.

You're one of those, "Raiding is the ONLY way to play! If you're not raiding then you're doing it wrong! Only raiders should get stuff! Raiding deserves to be the only badge of honor! Get raiding, get parsed, or GTFO plebs!" Types aren't you?

Never considered that other player types deserve special things too did you? Rewards for roleplaying. Rewards for community building. Rewards for teaching newbies basic mechanics. How about a reward for maxing out a retainer or maxing out a crafting or gathering job?

Oh wait, you don't want those because, in your mind, raiding IS the end game.

How you gonna get a reward for role-playing? I thought the reward was your fantasy or something. How would SE reward someone for role-playing? You turn on the RP flag and *bam* reward?

[Shougun]

So I’m curious here, I’ve seen a lot of people say the game is over all too easy and want more challenging content, my question is, how many of you are actually using the min ilvl setting with pre mades for more challenging runs?

Such is the plague of people in literally every MMO I've seen (even WoW, the so-called 'king' of endgame content).

99 times out of 100, these people have also not cleared the current endgame.

Here the complaint goes "I don't have no mounts b/c I don't like no mounts and I can't get no savage because I don't ever work a schedule and PF sux but I easy-clear all the things and never get loot and also have no parses proving that I've done anything ever because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

On WoW it goes "Endgame sux b/c it's all about raids and the raidz are all ezpz even though I've never cleared anything above LFR it must be an anomaly on my profile or I'm really on an alt so don't judge what my profile says and I iz hardcorez uberMythicz raiders when you must be a baddie b/c you've only cleared 4/8 by the end of week 3 and this is all because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

In SWTOR it goes "All the operations are way too ezpz even though I've cleared none of them b/c they're too ezpz and I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

TL;DR - People who do this can be defined with a simple, five-letter word: troll

I think there is a huge key missing here, and especially to Galbasadi's point which I think they're painting with way too big of a brush stroke (there are people they example but those people they're discussing really don't seem to be the people who started the concept of this thread).

That this thread concept is in response to people wanting what they feel is really easy content to return to the kind of hard content that it was. They weren't asking for ultimate. To say "go do ultimate" (or savage/ex) is like telling a person sad that you nerfed Garuda hard "well there is always bahamut ultimate". Lol..? They're not even sort of similar in challenge XD. I'm sure the people who wanted harder Crystal Tower, specifically hard like it was (not savage CT), will also do the new Nier alliance raid when it's actually available.

On top of that if you use the min ilvl system you have to go premade and you also lose roulette bonus, adding two more hurdles (which could be quite the challenge to get that many people together, depending on what it is). Also you might have that itch in your mind that it is an ineffective reward choice, which shouldn't matter if you're having fun but this stuff does matter lol. Like if there is a way to cheese the boss (that isn't a glitch/bug) and then a way to do it "hard", everyone is going to do the cheese most of the time. All of that Fynlar was pointing out.

So I feel like some people are saying "return the difficulty in a way that is convenient, for me" and people are respond with "don't you have an inconvenient option?". Which is a response but one should see that if it is inconvenient that maybe people want to make it not that lol (in King Otter's defense he adds more reasons/counter points in the other thread, you just don't see that in the OP). Or I think worse though is the people asking for hard garuda to be hard again and getting "so go clear savage/ex/ultimate, troll" in response which those are like 100000x harder than returning a "sort of hard" content back to form. First day alliance raids are not as hard as savage/ex/ultimate.

I feel there is quite a bit of talking past each other here, and a bit of poisoning of the well on top of that. Which is unfortunate.

Edit:
As an aside just for clarity sake, as responded in the other thread, I don't want to see a bunch of old content returned to form via tighter syncs- at least in the current roulette. I prefer that content slowly nerfs itself for a few reasons (mentioned in the other thread). That said I did think it could be fun to have some rotating roulette "blast from the past" content pieces that get returned to their original experience and perhaps even have some modifiers / mutations applied for variation and more challenge (meaning you can use roulette, and the reward is worth the time even too). So I'm all for adding an old content difficultly revival for current players, just not in the main roulette we already use- make it a new one :3. That mentioned post: here.

[Nora_of_Mira]

How you gonna get a reward for role-playing? I thought the reward was your fantasy or something. How would SE reward someone for role-playing? You turn on the RP flag and *bam* reward?

the logic being applied here, imo, is that RP, community building, teaching, etc, all deserve material rewards like raiding does. However, I would disagree and say that the rewards for those things listed should be inherent to the the activity whereas raiding should stick to material rewards. Raiders really only care about the material rewards anyway, imo.

[RyuSaarva]

How you gonna get a reward for role-playing? I thought the reward was your fantasy or something. How would SE reward someone for role-playing? You turn on the RP flag and *bam* reward?

doesn't square already give real life rewards for people who create in game events (rp or not).

[HWalsh]

How you gonna get a reward for role-playing? I thought the reward was your fantasy or something. How would SE reward someone for role-playing? You turn on the RP flag and *bam* reward?

There are tons of ways. Literally tons.

There is another game I've played, for example, that had GMs go undercover as newbies. If they ran into a player open world RP'ing they would mark it down.

Later on the player would get a message that they had an item waiting for them - It was a special sword, the most powerful sword in the game, better than the highest level dungeon content could give.

Nobody knew who they interacted with to get it, and there were only 3-4 of them on server, but it encouraged open world RP.

There was another game called Asheron's Call where players could write books in character. Collections of short stories, combinations of reagents for the in-game spells (guides were rare in that game initially) and some books were so popular that they started fetching high prices and some players would manually recreate them, by hand, to sell for in-game gold to other players.

Every year Microsoft would reward a player who had written the most popular in-game book.

[Macleod]

I'm too old to ever say the game is too easy. I work all day, and want to have fun and relieve some stress when I get home. A super hard or challenging game is not fun for me, and just makes me more stressed. I understand some people want difficulty for some reason, but just sharing my point of view and I can't be the only one that feels this way.

[Temjiu]

the logic being applied here, imo, is that RP, community building, teaching, etc, all deserve material rewards like raiding does. However, I would disagree and say that the rewards for those things listed should be inherent to the the activity whereas raiding should stick to material rewards. Raiders really only care about the material rewards anyway, imo.

I don't see why they couldn't have rewards for other playstyles though, and along those lines. Example for RP would be cosmetics, which are a big aspect of RP. materials for crafting, FC rewards for community building, etc. plenty of ways to reward activity types while keeping the rewards along those activity lines. Raiders aren't the only ones that like material rewards. I think that its just more central to a raiders behavior...i.e. they need better gear to do harder content.

[Machi_Machiavelli]

There are tons of ways. Literally tons.

There is another game I've played, for example, that had GMs go undercover as newbies. If they ran into a player open world RP'ing they would mark it down.

Later on the player would get a message that they had an item waiting for them - It was a special sword, the most powerful sword in the game, better than the highest level dungeon content could give.

Nobody knew who they interacted with to get it, and there were only 3-4 of them on server, but it encouraged open world RP.

There was another game called Asheron's Call where players could write books in character. Collections of short stories, combinations of reagents for the in-game spells (guides were rare in that game initially) and some books were so popular that they started fetching high prices and some players would manually recreate them, by hand, to sell for in-game gold to other players.

Every year Microsoft would reward a player who had written the most popular in-game book.

What game? What game gave someone a weapon better than what end-game centric players could receive? I'd be fine with ERPers, RPers, basket weavers etc getting stuff for being in character, but for it to be better than anything A progression geared person can get is a bit absurd. Maybe they can get glamour others can't get outside of rping etc. But getting something content given for not doing relevant content is crazy.