[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

[Haruka_R]

In summary:

Zenos becomes Zodiark.

I become Hydaelyn.

Epic kaiju fight.

Sound about right?

[Edax]

In summary:

Zenos becomes Zodiark.

I become Hydaelyn.

Epic kaiju fight.

Sound about right?

I hope not:

While tropes in of themselves are not bad, using Deus ex machina and Diabolus ex Machina are very poor ways to drive a conflict. Take the most famous duel in Japanese history: it was between Musashi and Kojirō, a contest of their own swordsmanship skills. That story could easily be ruined by giving Musashi the holy powers of the Archangel Gabriel and Kojirō given the powers of demon Mephistopheles. The problem here is that Musashi and Kojirō are no longer fighting using their own skills nor are there character experiences having any kind of impact on the outcome. It has essentially become a fight whose outcome is dictated at random by the writer since there no metric for holy/demonic powers, much like an anime beam struggle. If the story was about Musashi and Kojirō, then the writer has ruined it by making it a confrontation between Gabriel and Mephistopheles instead.

Zodiark and Hydalean are still not developed characters and we already know Zodiark is weaker. Using Zodiark and Hydalean's powers directly in a contest will be inherently weak writing since the protagonist and antagonist will not have much of any impact on the fight. It wouldn't be the Warrior of Light that would be responsible for winning anymore.

[Cilia]

I hope not:


Zodiark and Hydalean are still not developed characters and we already know Zodiark is weaker. Using Zodiark and Hydalean's powers directly in a contest will be inherently weak writing since the protagonist and antagonist will not have much of any impact on the fight. It wouldn't be the Warrior of Light that would be responsible for winning anymore.

This is highly debatable.

Hydaelyn was inherently weaker than Zodiark owing to fewer resources (so to speak) being used up in her creation, and she has gotten weaker over the ages as the Ascians continue to antagonize her. She was only able to wrest control of the planet from Zodiark by using her special power "to divide" and her elemental affinity enabling her to bind him. Blow for blow, Hydaelyn would lose against a full-powered Zodiark any day of the week (and twice on Thursdays).

Zodiark, on the other hand, is just over half-powered with 7 rejoinings giving him 8/14ths (4/7ths) of his full power. As things stand he can't break out of Hydaelyn's imprisonment in/as the moon.

Regarding the "ex Machina" clause, your example only works because there's no context for it. Here, on the other hand, there is a lot of context, with Hydaelyn and Zodiark having been known about since 2.0 and being major forces behind the conflicts. While they have been in the background it's not as if they came from nowhere. Furthermore even coked up on power from the two, there's still the matter of individual skill and willpower that can make a decisive difference...

Hydaelyn lends us her power because she agrees with what we do, not as a means to compel service from us. Zodiark, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have much of a will of his own despite supposedly being "the will of the star." It's still a clash of ideals between the PC and Zenos (fighting for a cause vs. fighting for its own sake), so I have to disagree with your assessment here.

[Edax]

This is highly debatable.

Hydaelyn was inherently weaker than Zodiark owing to fewer resources (so to speak) being used up in her creation, and she has gotten weaker over the ages as the Ascians continue to antagonize her. She was only able to wrest control of the planet from Zodiark by using her special power "to divide" and her elemental affinity enabling her to bind him. Blow for blow, Hydaelyn would lose against a full-powered Zodiark any day of the week (and twice on Thursdays).

Zodiark, on the other hand, is just over half-powered with 7 rejoinings giving him 8/14ths (4/7ths) of his full power. As things stand he can't break out of Hydaelyn's imprisonment in/as the moon.

Regarding the "ex Machina" clause, your example only works because there's no context for it. Here, on the other hand, there is a lot of context, with Hydaelyn and Zodiark having been known about since 2.0 and being major forces behind the conflicts. While they have been in the background it's not as if they came from nowhere. Furthermore even coked up on power from the two, there's still the matter of individual skill and willpower that can make a decisive difference...

Hydaelyn lends us her power because she agrees with what we do, not as a means to compel service from us. Zodiark, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have much of a will of his own despite supposedly being "the will of the star." It's still a clash of ideals between the PC and Zenos (fighting for a cause vs. fighting for its own sake), so I have to disagree with your assessment here.

The problem here is that the powers of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are still highly ambiguous. Zodiark can rewrite the laws of reality and Hydaelyn can sunder things. There's no solid setup to how such a battle would go down because you can't measure this power objectively. At the very least the power of the Warrior of Light and Zenos can be measured objectively, they both use identifiable weapons with identifiable spells and abilities. What would an attack by Hydaelyn even look like? What level would it be? What would the attack be called? And what about Zodiark? If we see these two in a conflict, it'd likely be with abilities made up on the spot by the writers with little to no setup.

Add to that, Zodiark and Zenos don't have goals that align. Zodiark wasn't made for The Hunt by one person or to provide a junkie his kicks. So it'd be Light/Adventurer vs Dark/Adrenaline Junkie which is an awkward clash of ideals. WoL or Hydalean is not strictly opposed to adrenaline rushes.

[RopeDrink]

He's not exactly what you could call a world-threatening menace on his own, but give him a Garlean legion or two packing the latest tech and then you have a problem.

Is that a joke? He turned the entire war on Doma on its head single-handedly, and that was before he gained his DIY echo. He's about as close to the WoL's power-level as any villain has ever been without it - and we've yet to see what he does with it post Shinryu. Given he also holds sway over primals (or however you want to explain that resonant power), if he gets so much as a whiff of juice from Hyde or Zodi (as he intends to do), then he'll match us (or exceed us) with ease. He's also the type of psycho who can (and likely will) pay our Scion's a visit while they sleep just to get our attention.

Even without his own body, an Ascian WEARING that body FLED from him, after an expansion involving a different Ascian giving a general idea of just how powerful they really are. That doesn't even mention Black Rose, which I still expect to be used by his hand (despite what he said about it in the epilogue). He doesn't want it to snatch away his target but that doesn't mean he won't resort to it for other purposes if it suits him. He's that kind of lunatic. Heck, considering it stops all aether, threatening to give Hyde a Black Rose shower would be enough to worry anyone.

You can hate Zenos all you like but if his actions don't worry you then I have to wonder if you've paid him any kind of attention at all. The only thing that could make me worry more would be Zenos actually capable of teaming up with someone like Elidibus, but that won't happen. He's a "Me" man. If anyone is going to render the Source into utter chaos, it'll be Zenos, likely with some shadowy influences from Elidibus and/or some WoElidi shenanigans. If Zenos' antics intentionally (or otherwise) provide Elidibus with a means of freeing or powering Zodiark, things are going to get very spicy. The difference now (compared to Stormblood) is that Zenos no longer has to bother placating the Empire. He knows his Resonant power actually works, and he now knows all the Hyde and Zodi shenanigans thanks to Elidibus. Who needs a Garlean Legion when you can drain, torment, or possibly even control the most powerful primal(s) in existence (or at least threaten to try)?

Add to that, Zodiark and Zenos don't have goals that align.

Zenos intends to drain them (one, the other, or both). BECOME them? Not a chance, and it's not like them having any kind of alignment even matters. If the story even remotely hints at an arc like that, it'll either be Zenos attempting to control Zodiark via Resonant, or it'll be Zodiark placating Zenos in some manner that might help himself bust out of the moon (or Elidibus doing it for him). Both are far-fetched and extremely unlikely. I'm still banking on Zenos being given the Vauthry treatment - he'll be prominent (in a background sort of way) and will serve as the doorman boss before the real bosses emerge and start going ham.

Zodiark wasn't made for The Hunt by one person or to provide a junkie his kicks.

Needless.

Elidibus' speech was more of a "Next time, Gadget! Next time! *shakes fist*" speech, less of a "I have been defeated"

Exactly. It was a recap of the story delivered in a completely nonplussed way. He's not lamenting what he's saying (eg. confirming Emet's death isn't bewailing a lack of allies, or that incident thwarting him in some way). It's just a "Won the battle, not the war" speech where he will no doubt become our biggest griefer down the road.

[KageTokage]

snip

I get that he's crazy strong, but I still don't see him realizing his goals without some kind of outside assistance.

He wouldn't have even become the monster he is now if not for his legion's research teams, and I think he'd need similar minds on his side to fill his ambition of using Zodiark/Hydaelyn for his own gain. Assuming he doesn't end up universally shunned by the Garleans for his seeming assassination of the emperor, he's influential enough that I could see him rallying together followers under the false pretense of freeing the world from Hydaelyn/Zodiark's tyranny.

As previously mentioned, I feel like Tartarus is going to be a key part of that.

[Kaurhz]

With a bit of luck we'll swat Zenos out in 5.3, or maybe Feo Ul will make my dreams come true, follow us to the source and turn Zenos into a bush, permanently.

[Theodric]

Hydaelyn is stronger than Zodiark by virtue of being able to best Zodiark in combat. The whole 'shattering of reality' element appears to be something of an unintended consequence and is suggestive that Hydaelyn may not have been aware of the extent of power she possessed.

Or, perhaps, she screwed up as Zodiark was required to maintain the status quo. Perhaps there is more to it that we don't know, but I hope it's more engaging than 'hYdAeLyN sInGs sO sHe'S gOoD.'

Zodiark being more powerful seems to just be another of Hydaelyn's convenient half-truths. He was powerful, certainly, though Hydaelyn being able to defeat him suggests that she had been empowered to a greater degree. The question is by what? I'd consider it to be rather dull if it turns out that she was conveniently able to best Zodiark through some contrived method that erodes away any moral greyness on her part. Especially after so much talk of 'balance' in the main story.

I am also of the opinion that it would be more interesting for Zenos to go after Hydaelyn rather than Zodiark. It'd tie in well with the 'Sephiroth' vibes he has going for him as well as the 'Kefka' vibes.

Having Zodiark's debut revolve around Zenos absorbing him wouldn't really sit well with me. It'd also come across as fairly contrived to me, especially if it was exploited as an excuse to conveniently slay both. If it does happen, I hope that Zenos at least loses his sense of self and is completely overtaken by Zodiark. That'd be a poetic irony - he'd no longer care about his 'Hunt' and instead be a puppet to Zodiark's will.

Sure, he took over Shinryu but that's a completely lesser Primal when compared to Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

[TankHunter678]

Zodiark being more powerful seems to just be another of Hydaelyn's convenient half-truths. He was powerful, certainly, though Hydaelyn being able to defeat him suggests that she had been empowered to a greater degree.

Hydaelyn possesses the power to sunder her target, cutting their power in half with every blow. This is a power ideal for the weaker side because it means that the stronger side will not maintain an advantage for long. So long as she is durable enough to survive a few hits of Zodiark at full power then after the first hit she lands her effective durability doubles, then doubles again on her next hit, then again with the next hit.

Which matches with Zodiark having the collective aether value of 75% of the ancient population with Hydaelyn having at best only 12.5% of the population invested in her.

If Hydaelyn was considerably stronger then Zodiark from the start then her sundering powers would basically be pointless. It also would not match up with the apparent investment in sacrifices to manifest her vs Zodiark.

[Cilia]

More accurately, the account of Hydaelyn being weaker than Zodiark doesn't come from her. It's a composite of information from Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, who have absolutely no reason to lie to us about it.

At most, Hydaelyn is 1/4 Zodiark's power (50% of Amaurot's citizens sacrificed themselves to summon him, while the other 25% fed to him were just burned as fuel to rehabilitate the planet; this would leave Hydaelyn with, at most, 12.5% of Amaurot's population to determine her strength). Therefore unless you want to claim Emet-Selch (and a bit less importantly Hythlodaeus) is a liar, Zodiark is much more powerful than Hydaelyn at his full strength, and her victory is a consequence of the special power her creators gave her (the power "to divide") and her Light element enabling her to enervate Zodiark into stasis once he was broken down enough.

(Note that while Emet-Selch did historically lie to the Garleans, that served his purposes. He has no reason to lie to us, and we have no reason to believe any of the information he shared with us over Shadowbringers was falsified. Until such a time as evidence becomes apparent that casts doubt on what he said, it is entirely safe to operate on the assumption that everything Emet-Selch said was true.)