Disrespectful and Dismissive.

[Laphael]

Alternately, do what they did with SMN pets and make the buttons we press correspond to whatever fairy we have out. Now we get 2 distinct fairies without the hotbar clutter.

Alas, if it's good enough for a dps it's too good for a healer.

Yes, yes I know, SE is the ultimate evil when it comes to healers. They destroy all the good of healers with their evil plan.
No, no, it's not that they just had a balancing problem, which is why we did not get a new healer for Shb.

I have the feeling SE is a bit overwhelmed with the healers, but abusing and insulting them is no solution. All the "(insert job) was DESTROYED COMPLETELY" or "(insert job) is DEAD" or "make everything as before" doesn´t help at all.
I read the question thread of the LL and some of those questions where really really disrespectful towards the devs (back to the topic i guess).

[Billythepancake]

Yes, yes I know, SE is the ultimate evil when it comes to healers. They destroy all the good of healers with their evil plan.
No, no, it's not that they just had a balancing problem, which is why we did not get a new healer for Shb.

I have the feeling SE is a bit overwhelmed with the healers, but abusing and insulting them is no solution. All the "(insert job) was DESTROYED COMPLETELY" or "(insert job) is DEAD" or "make everything as before" doesn´t help at all.
I read the question thread of the LL and some of those questions where really really disrespectful towards the devs (back to the topic i guess).

They brought up a great point though? SMN has actions changed depending on the pet they have out, and back when the pet hotbar was a thing, same thing for SCH. So arguing that selene being her own fairy would just be hotbar clutter is nonsense because her abilities could realistically just replace EOS'.

And while they achieved balance, they did it at the cost of what made the classes fun and unique, and that's the worst way to do it. If people are genuinely harassing the devs over it, that's bad, and obviously that needs to stop, but people coming here on the forums to complain? That's completely fair, because this is the only outlet we have to tell the developers we're unhappy and we want changes. What else are we supposed to do? Lie on our backs and submit?

[Laphael]

And while they achieved balance, they did it at the cost of what made the classes fun and unique, and that's the worst way to do it.

SCH still plays very different than WHM or AST. Each healer needs the standard heal spells as much as each tank needs tank stance and cooldowns.
I play all 3 and they feel still unique in their playstyle.

Also fun is very subjectiv (especially with the new card system for AST).
I realise, that a part of the playerbase is not enjoying the new healing aspects, but most comments describe it much worse than it is and most are also only talking about the dps ... but SCH, WHM and AST are healer classes.
WHM lost 1 aoe dot. SCH lost 1 dot and bane (miasma was just exchanged with AoW). AST dps is the same.

The healing toolkits got some really nice additions in my opinion.

[Edaniel]

SCH still plays very different than WHM or AST. Each healer needs the standard heal spells as much as each tank needs tank stance and cooldowns.
I play all 3 and they feel still unique in their playstyle.

Also fun is very subjectiv (especially with the new card system for AST).
I realise, that a part of the playerbase is not enjoying the new healing aspects, but most comments describe it much worse than it is and most are also only talking about the dps ... but SCH, WHM and AST are healer classes.
WHM lost 1 aoe dot. SCH lost 1 dot and bane (miasma was just exchanged with AoW). AST dps is the same.

The healing toolkits got some really nice additions in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure a majority of the AST comments aren't about their DPS. And if it is, they're more than likely referencing the complete garbage that the new card system is in regards to buffing the DPS of the other classes.

[Laphael]

I'm pretty sure a majority of the AST comments aren't about their DPS. And if it is, they're more than likely referencing the complete garbage that the new card system is in regards to buffing the DPS of the other classes.

Well, its pointless to discuss about Fun.

[Edaniel]

Well, its pointless to discuss about Fun.

You mean to tell me that Fun isn't the main point of an online game? What is it all for then? Surely not making money.

[Hatstand]

Well, its pointless to discuss about Fun.

Why is that? Are you saying that you can't determine that one system is more fun than another, and thus we should only care about balance? I mean, yes, it's subjective, but a) the people playing the class may still have a preference en mass, and b) it's important to cater to different tastes.

There have been multiple indicators that the people who main these jobs don't find the current playstyle fun, from the rampant complaints to the satisfaction poll that was done shortly after the release of 5.0.

Also, it seems to me that people who like the new healers seem to like ALL the new healers, whereas the people who don't like them don't seem to like any. Contrast this to before, when you had people who liked one or two of the jobs but thought the other(s) had problems. It seems to me that now the healers are all catering more towards the same sort of person's idea of fun, and therefore are not as well designed for pleasing healers as a whole.

[Laphael]

I mean, yes, it's subjective, but a) the people playing the class may still have a preference en mass, and b) it's important to cater to different tastes.

Fun is subjectiv and you can´t determine the "preference en mass" from forum posts.

I liked the old healers and i like the new healers, because they didn´t change as much as some ppl want me to believe, and yes, i play them all myself.

Of course they should cater to different tastes, but lets be honest here. As much fun as a class might be, if its underpowered it wont be played, so yes, balance probably is first priority with fun being a close second.

[Hatstand]

SCH still plays very different than WHM or AST. Each healer needs the standard heal spells as much as each tank needs tank stance and cooldowns.
I play all 3 and they feel still unique in their playstyle.

Also fun is very subjectiv (especially with the new card system for AST).
I realise, that a part of the playerbase is not enjoying the new healing aspects, but most comments describe it much worse than it is and most are also only talking about the dps ... but SCH, WHM and AST are healer classes.
WHM lost 1 aoe dot. SCH lost 1 dot and bane (miasma was just exchanged with AoW). AST dps is the same.

The healing toolkits got some really nice additions in my opinion.

We're complaining about the offensive kits because the defensive kits are (mostly) fine. And yes, the defensive kits are more important. And if they had broken the defensive kits to this extent you can bet we'd be kicking up an even bigger fuss. However, just because the defensive kits are more important than the offensive kits doesn't mean that the offensive kits aren't important. (And yes, I'm talking about offensive kits, which includes AST buffs, as opposed to just DPS kits.)

The reason why offensive kits are important is that offence can always be useful whereas defence is contingently useful. If people aren't dying, you don't need more defence and no matter how many more nice healing buttons you press you won't be being helpful. That means that, assuming you care about helping your party more than a pure healing fantasy, as you and your party get better at content, you're going to be spending more and more time utilising your offensive kit. This has two ramifications for current healers:

1. Old content is excruciating. There are lower level dungeons you can heal with only 1 healing button every 30 seconds or less. That means that at least 92% of your casts will be offensive, and under the current system that means mostly mashing the same button (or the same few buttons on AST) without any active thought.
2. The better you get at healing (and therefore the more efficiently you use your heals), the more time you spend mashing the same button over and over again. It makes being good at healing a punishment, not a reward.

The second point is what's pushed me into giving up healing for the time being. I'm not the best healer and I already feel like I spend too much time mindlessly spamming my few offensive buttons. The idea of practicing and getting better only to do more of that is depressing.

[Billythepancake]

SCH still plays very different than WHM or AST. Each healer needs the standard heal spells as much as each tank needs tank stance and cooldowns.
I play all 3 and they feel still unique in their playstyle.

Also fun is very subjectiv (especially with the new card system for AST).
I realise, that a part of the playerbase is not enjoying the new healing aspects, but most comments describe it much worse than it is and most are also only talking about the dps ... but SCH, WHM and AST are healer classes.
WHM lost 1 aoe dot. SCH lost 1 dot and bane (miasma was just exchanged with AoW). AST dps is the same.

The healing toolkits got some really nice additions in my opinion.

We talk about the DPS aspect because that's what was gutted. I'd be just as upset if they made my DPS godlike, but they sat here and made my healing terrible. Both aspects are why scholar worked. You don't make mac and cheese without the cheese. We want more to manage and do when theres no healing to be done, spamming 1 button when nobody needs healing isn't fun.