My Hoped for NIN rework, fleshed out simple ideas from many sources.

[Vendalwind]

Spread throughout a couple threads I've been gathering a list of some of the simplest but most QoL or buff without complexity loss options that are available. I will update this first post list as discussion is had and as more time passes, based upon stuff in this thread and the balance and other threads. Not all of these ideas would work together, some of them I don't even really like, but hoping a few make it in by 5.1 or at least catch DEV attention. THESE ARE OPTIONS. I DONT WANT ALLLLL OF THESE. IN FACT THERE ARE A FEW I DISAGREE WITH, but a few of these would be nice and its meant to be a collection of simple changes i've seen in the forums
ALT ideas were inspired by discussion. and .5 ideas were also inspired or taken directly from conversation here or in the balance discord.

1. Remove bunny Mudra. Allow missteps to function exactly like dancers. (costs a wheel spin but doesn't set you back any further)

2. Allow movement during TCJ. ALTERNATE have TCJ give you three charges that retain ninjutsu and works for three casts, effectively the same result, but even allows weaving, (which i think might be a bit too much personally).

3. Raiton made into a long duration low potency dot + buff basic Fuma. ALTERNATE make Fuma a bleed dot and Raiton higher Pot.

4. Throw dagger no longer interrupts Mudras and weapon-skill combos. (i love this idea, More in my opinion for those moments when you go out of range than for mid-Mudra)

5. Connecting Hyosho to Fuma instead of Hyoton.

5.5 Hyoton causes Shatterpoint status that guarantees the next weaponskill Crits+DH!!!

6. with #5 in mind Change mudras as such: Ten: Fuma, Chi: Raiton, Jin: Katon, Ten Chi: Suiton, Jin Ten: Doton, Chi Jin: Huton. no more 3 step Mudras.

7. Bunshin duration nerfed but full teased effect regained. OR have Bunshin grant charges of duality.

8. Alter Meisui+Mug for less redundancy and complexity. Meisui plays off Hyoton and to cause extra dmg 120 second cooldown + buff mug resource gain. ALTERNATE: Mug naturaly progresses to meisui as they are unified, mug instead of suiton grants access to trick.

9. Tighten Mudra status window (from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds), make Ninjutsu cast current Mudra combination (from the status which tracks it) when Mudra expires without interrupting anything, Thus removing Ninjutsu button, reducing clipping.

10. Ninki generation reduced to 6/9(with Bunshin) Cast cost reduced to 60, Mug + Meisui 30 per. prevent over capping as easily.

11. Enhance Shukuchi's max range slightly. Reduce cooldown to 45 seconds. Having the same range as a traditional jump to target move just makes it a weaker version in most applications. It needs a payoff for its difficulty.

11.5 New move Windstep. Consumes both casts of shukuchi, only usuable when shukuchi is at 2 charges Transports you to the targets rear with the same enhanced Shukuchi range.

12. Let TCJ cast on each Mudra input removing the need to press Ninjutsu button 3 times during the cast. Make cool-down between each Mudra 1 seconds instead of .5 seconds. Drastically streamlining the move. Works well with #9.

13. Nerf Trick to 5%. Disconnect DWD from assassinate. Let DWD work off of trick to provide an additional 10% personal dmg buff for the NIN for 10 seconds after it lands. Make assassinate a standard oGCD

14. Alternatively give us a party in combat Mov Speed buff so we retain some unique utility.

15. Shadowfang made part of armor crush combo. (SE->SF->AC) {I don't like this one but it would work well enough given refreshing SF would effectively set you up to always overcap huton anyways.}

16. Bring back assassinate, Its a minor change that added some special flavor to NIN as a better finisher. Still allow DWD to proc it early.

More Intensive changes:
-Move Mudra to client-side so that latency was no longer an issue. only the final ninjutsu cast would resolve on server side as a single spell.

Looking forward to responses! and to make changes or add more to this list. Asa final note please stay on subject. you can bring up other classes for balancing discussion purposes and comparison, but please don't hijack the thread into a buff X class thread. Thank you all!

*edit* just so i can save my rework, this was pre 5.08 patch in mind

NIN-Balanced mathed out gust slash dps increase to 200, which proved correct. Which was 50 potency added to a skill used ~ every seven seconds. This gives us an image of the potency NIN needs to gain to match up the about how much potency per minute needs to be added, But before getting to that lets re apply venomous strikes at a value of 5% closing up the gap immediately. Based on the gap being ~ 1.2kdps the remaining 4% dps gap (about 600 dps) that needs to be closed is approximately 700 dps. 425 potency per minute based ont he above is almost 200 dps increase. So 425*3 = 1275 potency per minute needed to cover the remaining 4% gap. the 5% bonus to that potency comes out at about 63, so lets just say after venomous is added that 1200 potency is still needed per minute to hit the goal. (do the math yourself if you wish but i promise this checks out)

QoL changes with potency evaluated

1: Remove bunny Mudra. Allow missteps to function exactly like dancers. (costs a .5 second wheel spin but doesn't set you back any further) [if combo doesnt make sense/result in a Ninjutsu act as if button was never pushed], Alternately keep bunny, but make it on cast cast Ninjutsu cooldown so you can attempt it again next oGCD slot. TCJ would still need to have bunny removed tho entirely. no effect on potential max dps.

2: Ten Chi Jin triggers effect on Mudra cast with general ~.7 second oGCD cooldown. This removes three button pushes, and effectively reduces the time spent casting the skill(and the immobility) by ~2 seconds (from 5-7 down to 3-5). Total TCJ button count reduced from 7 to 4. this is one extra GCD every 120 seconds. so on average 300 potency gain every 2 minutes, or 150 per minute potency. Goal remaining 1050.

3: Change Mudras as such: Ten=Fuma, Chi=Raiton, Jin=Katon, Ten->Chi=Suiton, Jin->Ten=Doton, Jin->Ten->Chi=Huton.
Hyosho from Fuma, Goka from Katon when Kassatsu-ed.
Hyoton removed.
Dropping Huton is still punishing, but clipping is now less of a problem in general.
TCJ paths remain the same (ie Ten Chi Jin would yield Fuma, Raiton, Suiton as normal etc.) this is effectively 1 extra GCD every 4-6 ninjutsus. for simplicity sake lets consider perfect scenario of 4 on a faster than normal 2.0 GCD NIN (norm is ~ 2.1) due to reduced inputs and clipping this saves 1 gcd every minute and 20 seconds. so 300~ potency per 80 seconds. 225 increase per minute. SO 825 remaining.

4: Fuma 280 potency applies a bleeding debuff called Bloodburst lasting 10 seconds worth 220 potency if triggered before it expires.
Kassatsu-ed Hyosho triggers the effect.
Both moves (Raiton and Fuma) are now used. Fuma is applied before a Kassatsu for a 100 potency gain over Raiton, but if Kassatsu is unavailble Raiton is the better choice at 400 potency. This encourages better Ninjutsu management further as casting Fuma then Kassatsu next ogcd then Hyosho is proper play. Should also be useable after TCJ if #2 is implemented, otherwise window might be too tight for some ping (TCJ=5-7 seconds + GCD with Kassatsu weave 2 seconds, +GCD with cast). TCJ multiplier should not apply to the debuff. kassatsu is once per minute. this change would be 100 per minute. 725 remaining.

5: Throwing Dagger no longer breaks the gcd combo, thus enabling its free use during disconnects. Ninja's do regularly use kunai etc.
long fights maybe require the use of ~ 3 if even that throwing daggers in most of these savages, more use would be seen with this change, but I still estimate this bonus to be extremely minor. regardless lets say 25 potency per minute for simplicity sake. 700 remaining

6: Buff Suiton potency to 150, this makes Meisui really just a Ninki control tool since 40 Ninki =1/2 a 500 potency Bhava. Therefore using Suiton->Meisui is not a potency loss compared to Raiton. 30 potency gain, at maximum of once per minute. probably less. given meisui usage, but occasionally enhanced by TCJ. lets just call it 30 potency gain. 670 per minute remains.

I would next buff DWD by 100 per hit, (300 total gain) 370 remain, then buff assassinate which is a forced direct hit/crit by 100, lets call it 170 cause why not depends on the value of crit a player has and the multipliers.

200 potency per minute remains that probably could most easily be spread onto GCDs. Spinning edge is used every 6.3 seconds ish. if you gave it 20 potency, that would add almost 200 potency per minute. Goal reached.

[Drayos]

My problem with ninja is, it looks awesome but when you play it, you reliese that it’s a real mess I actually wanted to main ninja this expansion, but I ended up not due to its situation (not dps wise but raw requirements of play.)

If I was to ask for any changes I’d ask for

- remove Huton and put us on a 1.5gcd.

- remove shadowfang with ur idea of swapping ration into a dot + a fuma damage buff this would work really well.

Other then this I really like all ur ideas and hope they these are noted down for potential changes by se

[Duskane]

I just want the job to have a nice flow,be fun with theme Still intact

Mudra's need to be more stable even if it was similar to GNB continuation combo and TCJ is just the full cart combo without us locked in place

[Kabooa]

List

1. I think the modular set up of Mudras makes this a bit more difficult than dancer. The compromise here is just removing the ability to use the same mudra twice in a row, though this removes future Ninjutsu additions. However, as they seem content to add these through Kassatsu, that seems fine.

End result: Mudras are usable once per Ninjutsu cast.

2. I'd personally change TCJ to a charge system alternate Ninjutsu cast. 3 charges, 30-40s cooldown per, have it cast your current Ninjutsu without ending your mudra combos.

3. Lightning being a dot is one of the least satisfying outcomes I can think of for the Element. I'd rather see the potency up a bit more and have Fuma Shuriken gain the DoT effect.

4. Grant it a potency bonus from Mudra use. You're still losing out potency even if it prevents clipping.

5. I don't think this really has to change Ninjutsu, but I do think it could use something extra. Ninki gain?

6. S'good.

7. Bring back Duality. Give it charges. Bunshin grants Duality Charges. /fingerguns.

8. Have Mug activate "Hide" attacks. Natural progression of Mug-> Meisui, while still allowing the option of Trick/Sneak Attack, whatever variation exists after this, when Ninjutsu isn't ready.

9. Not sure on this. Would need to see it in action.

10. Dump generation to 6/ weaponskill and costs to 60. Adjust meisui and mug accordingly.

11. Ground targets are awful. Trash Shukuchi and build it up from scratch.

12. Works.

13. If we're going this far, turn Trick into a potent DoT effect. Extend the DoT effect for each damaging ability that lands, up to a maximum duration. Give Ninja distinctive play difference by encouraging spacing out OGCDs to keep that DoT effect rolling.

14. Bard music stops.

15. Seems unnecessary.

[Shurrikhan]

I'd like about half of these. To toss my own pipedream into the mix...

• Mudra are now handled client-side, and their and Ninjutsu's animation locks have been reduced even further.
• For now, you can no longer use two Mudra twice in the row. If Ninjutsu is not added to one's bars, the button for the most recent Mudra hit will turn into your Ninjutsu button, saving you a key. Just making order matter can fish us up a couple more Ninjutsu before we need to double them, and if we wanted an episode-long Naruto handsign duel we could just use seals generated by prior Ninjutsu to be repeated in order a la long Magika spells. (If Suiton, Katon, Raiton, Fuma, Suiton, Raiton -> Any, Other, Jin; Any, Ten; Any, Chi; Any; Any, Other, Jin; Any, Chi, <press again to cast Chidori-Fusen-Kagebunshin(?) (Sorry, I don't know my Naruto.) -- with the seals themselves making the reset times without need for a Ninjutsu key over the long casts.)
• Mudra and Ninjutsu are no longer interrupted by other actions between them; delaying the Ninjutsu cooldown itself is the only reason not to weave weaponskills into longer casts.
• Any among Throwing Daggers, Death Blossum, and Hakke Mujinsatsu now have one GCD/use of lenience before breaking combos or (in DB's case) having their combos broken by combos.
• New level 30 trait, Cloak of Daggers, increases Throwing Daggers potency to 180.
• New level 45 trait, Cloak of Daggers II, increases Throwing Daggers, Gust Slash, and Aeolian Edge potency by a further 30. (Initial Gust Slash potency 240, and initial Aeolian edge potency 370/430. All therefore arrive at 210, 270, and 400/460. The added 10 potency in the AE chain makes up for the one in three Gust Slashes spent instead on Armor Crush without de-weighting Aeolian Edge.)
• Now that Fuma no longer saves any clipping except at high skill speeds, Fuma has been buffed. After level 35, it now additionally generates Yamikaze, which upgrades your next Throwing Daggers by changing them into an Ability instead of a Weaponskill. This Ability form of Throwing Daggers does not share a global cooldown with other weaponskills, though it does inflict the global cooldown, at an amount initially equal to the global cooldown remaining when it is cast, plus a further two-thirds of a global cooldown. Yamikaze stacks three times, each further time removing a further 33% of the global cooldown to be inflicted, until, at 3 stacks, it becomes an oGCD. This effectively adds 60-70 potency to Fuma Shuriken, and in a more fun way. (Fuma potency therefore up to 350). Throwing Daggers affected by Yamikaze gain yet another GCD of lenience before breaking combos (or, do not consume their GCD of lenience).
• Raiton potency also reduced to 360. Doton potency reduced to 70 per tick over 15 seconds for 350 total.
• TCJ no longer enforces a further internal recast time on each Ninjutsu action since the extended time is no longer needed to remove ping disparity (since it's... all client-side).
• TCJ damage bonus removed; instead, each cast will duplicate 50% of its potency onto the next, creating the same overall effect on damage but with a small added condition: This accumulated damage is removed if the Ninja performs any other action or any movement. Conversely, other actions and movement do not remove the stored Mudra nor newly place Ninjutsu on cooldown, thus removing only some bonus damage rather than everything.
• Bunshin duration reduced, but the effect now copies your weaponskills at 33% damage and Ninki generation while increasing your dodge chance by 33%. Bunshin-Shadowfang stacks with regular Shadowfang.
• Suiton and/or Bhavkakra potency increased as needed to make Suiton-Meisui competitive against Raiton once per minute at the new reduced/removed clipping cost.
• Hyoton made worth using. It now also inflicts Shatterpoint, guaranteeing a critical strike for your next strike (other than auto-attack) against the target.
• Kassatsu upgrades now apply to every Ninjutsu skill: Yamikaze (Dark Wind [Shuriken Storm]), Kyoshin no Arashi (Mad God [flurry of lightning strikes]), Goka Mekkyaku, Hyogasai (Glacier-breaker [freezes and then shatters with spears of ice]), Jigoku no kama (The Sinners' Cauldron [just a really edgy Doton that binds enemies with chains and draws them towards a center of growing, festering darkness, etc., etc.]), and Gensen (The Source [think VII:AC Lifestream VFX through a Suiton fountain]), each with significant utility outside of just damage.
• Suiton made situationally worthwhile outside of TA. It now Interrupts and creates a Water Spout through which or out of which enemies able to be blinded cannot see.
• Shukuchi baseline cooldown reduced to 45 seconds.
• New skills, Windstep/春塵 (Shunjin) and Shadowstep/影替 (Kagegawari) added. These share a recast time with Shukuchi and can essentially be thought of as macro-ed or special targeting versions of the skill (if macros had no intentionally added downsides). Windstep moves a fixed distance forward, triggering a lower recast time of 30 seconds, while Shadowstep moves behind the target - be they ally or foe.
• Assassinate returned. Dream Within a Dream grants a temporary extra charge of Assassinate (no recast time followed or triggered) and inflicts the target with Mortal Coil/死すべき, causing your next Assassination to strike critically.

Fore-notice: my above list is a late-night spitball free of any proofreading.

[Vendalwind]

Nice!!! I really liked a few from shurikhan and some adjustments from Kaboaa, will be adding some/adjusting a few in a little while when my hunt train ends

I'll also comment on a few I didnt add explaining why with some speculation. feel free to keep discussing them tho obviously!

[Vendalwind]

-Mudra handled client side would be a wonderful change HOWEVER its kinda a big implementation and would require more code work and thus I think its too complex a change to hope for even semi realistically.

-Potency gains are well needed, but i actually really want to stay away from them because potency gains are also just kinda a band-aid onto the class to compensate for its other issues right now. Id rather see dps gains through making the class more playable. I would like to see throwing daggers receive some more love tho, kunai is a part of ninja style for sure.

The TCJ stacking bonus you suggest is more forgiving, but I think still keeps some of the issues TCJ has, especially if it doesnt also get the client side buff. if it did get client side buff it would be a great idea imo.

33% of weaponskills for bunshin actually in effect is weaker. seeing as the average weapon skill dmg is 300 (thus 100 potency per and it currently does about 133~ potency per hit) Dodge chance IMO is dangerous as it causes some weird things to happen in high end content. The flavor is nice, but not sure it would work well with the game.

I like your Hyoton Idea! thats going on the list!

I love the kassatsu upgrade idea, BUT its an overly complex one for a few reasons A: would cost a lot of development and animation time even for new moves, B: there would still be a best use for kassatsu damage wise regardless, thus most of these moves we would see unused in actual play making all that work worth very little.

-Although I miss old assassinate, and I do like your idea, the Dev team specifically said it wanted to move away from any ability on any class that is introduced to a rotation aonly after an enemy has hit a certain percentage, because of how it misbalances things.

[Raikai]

Many amazing ideas here! I'd just add my simple thought of making Fuma Shuriken our "filler" mudra, delete (or repurpose) Shadow Fang and make Raiton the dot skill.

[Shurrikhan]

-Mudra handled client side would be a wonderful change HOWEVER its kinda a big implementation and would require more code work and thus I think its too complex a change to hope for even semi realistically.

-Potency gains are well needed, but i actually really want to stay away from them because potency gains are also just kinda a band-aid onto the class to compensate for its other issues right now. Id rather see dps gains through making the class more playable. I would like to see throwing daggers receive some more love tho, kunai is a part of ninja style for sure.

The TCJ stacking bonus you suggest is more forgiving, but I think still keeps some of the issues TCJ has, especially if it doesnt also get the client side buff. if it did get client side buff it would be a great idea imo.

33% of weaponskills for bunshin actually in effect is weaker. seeing as the average weapon skill dmg is 300 (thus 100 potency per and it currently does about 133~ potency per hit) Dodge chance IMO is dangerous as it causes some weird things to happen in high end content. The flavor is nice, but not sure it would work well with the game.

I like your Hyoton Idea! thats going on the list!

I love the kassatsu upgrade idea, BUT its an overly complex one for a few reasons A: would cost a lot of development and animation time even for new moves, B: there would still be a best use for kassatsu damage wise regardless, thus most of these moves we would see unused in actual play making all that work worth very little.

-Although I miss old assassinate, and I do like your idea, the Dev team specifically said it wanted to move away from any ability on any class that is introduced to a rotation aonly after an enemy has hit a certain percentage, because of how it misbalances things.

1. True, but I think it's more than worth the time required. Consider that we've already gone through many code revisions even since late Heavensward, and sometimes on a category-by-category basis. This isn't unprecedented, just disproportionately useful.

2. These aren't potency gains. Current Gust Slash is stronger than what I've suggested. I just pushed some of its potency bonus to AE instead, while compensating with a further 10 because it'd otherwise fall short due to every third GS-combo branching to Armor Crush instead. What Bhavakacra gains, Raiton loses, despite still being the technically strongest option (by 10 potency outside of a readied AE alongside Hyoton, assuming Hyoton can also be increased to, say, 180), thus merely shuffling potency to allow for Meisui, Fuma, and Hyoton viability.

3. With the internal cooldown removed from TCJ, it too would be just as affected by client-side workings as singular Ninjutsu would. That said, I do like seeing TCJ go off in a row, especially for purposes of damage maximization. That's why I want to keep the damage bonus in that manner; you maintain the utility and fun of the skill regardless, but not the full damage. (It also further buffs Hyoton or Suiton, since their additional damage effect isn't dependent on their own damage.) It also just slightly devalues TCJ's burst itself, meaning it can better be used to proc TA instead of solely during TA.

4. I like flavor. I can also up Bunshin to 50% and it'd still work fine, so long as it produces a factor of 6 for Ninki. I'd just have to shuffle potencies elsewhere. Personally, I don't like strong capstone abilities, if only because it basically screws over jobs up until level cap to compensate for their level cap strength.

5. Take it.

6. Oh, I'm fully aware. It was mostly written in jest. But, the point is that I hate using a system addition to essentially remove more than it adds. I'd therefore even prefer a flat 150 potency buff to all skills, which would actually enlarge their range of relative viability slightly, rather than further limiting it. And, if Ice-shuriken belong on any mudra, it should be Fuma, for the convenience. Though... it then really shouldn't be ice-based, which would conflict with their Ice&Fire shtick so... /shrug...

7. Virtually every boss dies at 0% HP, never above 20%; thus the damage of executes can be averaged out across the full fight without issue. They are merely overemphasized in runs that end poorly, which I actually think is fine; I don't mind a NIN being better able to clutch out a fight with other dps dead at the end. They're not inherently even a tenth the balance issue of even the ability to long-cast rez, and they add great flavor in the open world. And if anyone deserves one, it's NIN. That way we can excuse it as unique, too.

Oh, I should also have mentioned that the Assassinate charge would make it usable regardless of enemy %HP.

[Vendalwind]

I'll add a long term, or more intensive cjange section at the bottom for the clientside mudra thing. You are definately right. It would be a wonderful change.

Assassinate being unique to ninja would be cool. I like the move. Ill put it into the list but given the devs literlly just removed it i still feel like they wont return it to us. And yeah it is a very small balancing point.

Will edit later tonight when im at my computer