[SPOILERS] The Convocation of Fourteen

[Zackneifein]

I don't know why everyone want to see in the scene with Thordan an hint of the revelation from Shadowbringers.
What happened to Thordan is the same thing that happened to Varis just before being hit by Zenos : they saw their death personnified in the WoL/Zenos, and when from your perspective, you are in the right, you can only see the one killing you as an evil being.

About the WoL, I think what hint the most that the original owner of our Soul is someone quite important is those line (i played in french, and they have more or less the same sense than the japanese one) :
"I could never fail to recognize it, no matter how shattered." (in French, he say that he could recognize our soul, even shattered, between thousands).

And even more it's these one : "Ah, how fitting a fate for that one, indeed."
I don't know if we were the Fourteen member of the Convocation since we don't know the reason why he was absent just before the Cataclysm (maybe he was against the use of Zodiark, maybe he was not aware of this solution and trying to delay or fight of the Cataclysm...), but one thing is sure, at one moment, he was doing what we are doing at this moment : fighting Emet-Selch/the servant of Zodiark and their objectives.

[Anonymoose]

I don't know why everyone want to see in the scene with Thordan an hint of the revelation from Shadowbringers.

At least Yoshida admitted this morning...

Thinking back to when the Warriors of Darkness first appeared (in the patch 3.x series), we didn’t have any of these plans set. When we were thinking about how to wrap up the foreshadowing for the Warriors of Darkness, we decided that it would involve Minfilia of the Source traveling to the First to become its savior, and from there we decided that the Warrior of Light would eventually travel to the First, and came up with the proceedings, including saving the First.

However even at that point, we hadn't decided when we would do this.

We wanted to mark a conclusion to the stories of Doma, Ala Mhigo, and Garlean Empire in patch 4.0, so we finally decided we would do this about two weeks after Stormblood release

...so it can't be the case, lol

I try to tell people all the time that there's a difference between foreshadowing an event, leaving foreshadowing hooks with no exit strategy, and just straight-up doing fresh writing that connects to past writing in a way that creates the illusion of foreshadowing. All of these are valuable writing skills. Understanding which you're looking at helps you understand what was known and intended by the writers at the time and helps you understand current writing in its proper context. Maybe the only reason something is convoluted is to preserve world contiguity and integrity by sewing together multiple things that originally weren't intended to be without any real contradictions. Maybe you can glean hints about what was and will be via focusing on what was "changed" and excluding things that don't relate.

[Alleluia]

Yeah, still think the dark shot Thordan saw as he was dying was done b/c the WoL has an Ascian soul and he was seeing a hint of that. I'm always going to, until the devs actually come out and say, "No we didn't know the WoL's origins at the time of writing it", which no quote has done as far as I'm aware.

They've always known what the Echo is (or at least have since the reboot). And, from what we're learning, the Echo seems to tie into having an Ascian soul. Thus they've always known that was the direction they wanted to go for WoL's origins. The only answer that would negate this is that they haven't always known what the Echo is, which makes no sense to me b/c so far the writing has been too coherent to have giant worldbuilding holes in it like that. The specifics of Amaurot and the WoL becoming the WoD to save the First, etc? Yeah, of course that's recent. The general twist of "The WoL fights the ascians but also secretly is one and has the Echo as a result!" is what I think has been knwon by the writers from the beginning, or close to. Definitely before Heavensward.

[Zackneifein]

I'm honestly not sure of that.
Series, mangas, comics, video games, everyone want to see foreshadowing everywhere, but most of the time what's planed is never what happened and what happen is just a last minute thing.
What are the ascian, what truly are Zodiark and Hydaelyn, it could have been decided very recently.
And Lahabrea tend to justify this thought, all the "explanations" on why he is so weak compared to Emet-Selch, why "Ascian Prime" even exist since both of them should have been "complete". It honestly seems more to be last minute explanation because the idea that someone suggest during the development of Shadowbringers about what are ascian, what is the WoL, etc... was so good that we need something to make it seems ok when it's still a flaw in the global story of FFXIV.

For me, what's is the proof that there is no link between the WoL soul nature and Thordan last word is that exactly the same thing happened to Varis.
And if we can imagine that Thordan have acquired some abilities to see the soul of someone after becoming a Primal, Varis, who is a Garlemaldian that can't even use aether and magic, could never do the see the same thing.

For me, the response is, like Yoshida said years ago, the same in both case. It's just the disbelief and the fear, just before dying ,that make them see their killers that way.

[Senrac]

The fact that that shade recognized our soul and saw Aldbert leads me to believe we are the remnant of the 14th. Plus there's the figure Emet saw us become when we were fighting him adds weight to that conclusion.

Totally 110% THIS!

[Riastrad]

I have read the discussion and I am still unsure if this is the correct place to post this. I am not a religious person myself so I am not attempting to shove it in your faces. I apologize if I offend someone.

The lyrics to Shadowbringers has some very interesting lines in it.

"For whom weeps the storm,
Her tears on our skin
The days of our years gone,
Our souls soaked in sin
These memories ache with the weight of tomorrow

Who fights?
Who flies?
Who falls?

One brings shadow, one brings light
Two-toned echoes tumbling through time
Threescore wasted, ten cast aside
Four-fold knowing, no end in sight
One brings shadow, one brings light
One dark future no one survives
On their shadows, away we fly"

I would like to call attention to 3 lines.

"Two-toned echoes tumbling through time" The WoL and Ardbert, Ryne and Minfilia.
"For whom weeps the storm, Her tears on our skin"


"Threescore wasted, ten cast aside" From the Bible, Psalm 90, verse 10: "The days of our years are three score and ten." meaning the average life expectancy of a human. Also a play on the Convocation of 13, Formerly 14.
"The days of our years gone, Our souls soaked in sin."


"Four-fold knowing, no end in sight" John 5:31-39: Verse 31: "If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true." Dubbed the "Fourfold Witness for Jesus" The "Messiah" or the chosen one who saved the world. In my theory a reference to the 14th member who left due a disagreement on sacrificing lives in order to bring those lost back from the dead. Where would it end? Would they then sacrifice more to save others?
"These memories ache with the weight of tomorrow".


I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, we are the 14th. We constantly sacrifice everything we have (in a vicious cycle of death and rebirth no less) to save those who can not save themselves. A "Messiah" if you will. The Warrior of Light takes that burden so others do not have to. We alone are able to bear the weight, even when all seems lost.


Forgive me, it is not my intention to belittle others beliefs by making/drawing parallels between a game and their faith. But I am attempting to understand the mind set of the game writers and what their story is trying to tell us.

[Dulcia]

I think that we are Hythlodaeus. That would explain why he could see Aldbert, and why he recognized us.

[Alleo]

I think that we are Hythlodaeus. That would explain why he could see Aldbert, and why he recognized us.

Such a strangely colored soul...
うん、いくつに分かたれていても、間違えようがない。
I could never fail to recognize it, no matter how shattered.
ヒュトロダエウス : まったく、実に「あの人」らしい運命だ。
Ah, how fitting a fate for that one, indeed.
エメトセルクも、（彼・彼女）には思い入れがあるだろうから、
Surely Emet-Selch, too, must have realized who you are.
キミがそうだと、気づいているかもしれないね。
He remains attached to (him/her), after all.

That is the japanese version of it, which imo makes it even more clear that it would be very strange for him to be us.

I just think that when he was alive he was already a master in seeing someones soul and knew Emet and us, thus he is not only able to see Ardberts soul color a bit but also understands who we once were.

[Daralii]

Forgive me, it is not my intention to belittle others beliefs by making/drawing parallels between a game and their faith. But I am attempting to understand the mind set of the game writers and what their story is trying to tell us.

Considering that the Amaurot dungeon heavily references the Book of Revelation, from dialogue to boss names and design, I think it's fair game.

[Haruka_R]

Well... After reading all of this, it is painfully obvious we are the 14th member of the Convocation of Fourteen.

It wouldn't be Final Fantasy XIV otherwise.