Bard in FF14 is so much like Hunter without Pet in Ragnarok Online

[Hanayumi]

Folks forget Devs gave bard a whole preformance system? Bard is bard, song buff or not, lol

[Connor]

Folks forget Devs gave bard a whole preformance system? Bard is bard, song buff or not, lol

So if a Bard loses its song buffs it’s still a Bard, but if a Scholar loses 2/3 DoTs the entire identity of the class is destroyed? Is ok for Dancers to stop dancing if they get an emote for it? I don’t think it’s accurate to say the identity of any job is represented by an emote, especially when it doesn’t add anything to how the job actually plays

I just don’t see why we should settle for just an emote and 3 personal damage boosts that don’t make much sense in the context of the job, when so many other job communities are up in arms about their job’s identity being waylaid. Why is it not ok if Astrologian loses its buffs and identity but it’s ok for the same to happen to Bard

[Hanayumi]

Ast and sch actually felt bad to play with the changes, bard feels solid, apex arrow need some tweak but the lost of foes and the tiny dh buff didn't harm it. Warden, battle voice, nature's, and troubadour bard still has support songs theyre just utility now.

[Connor]

Ast and sch actually felt bad to play with the changes, bard feels solid, apex arrow need some tweak but the lost of foes and the tiny dh buff didn't harm it. Warden, battle voice, nature's, and troubadour bard still has support songs theyre just utility now.

I’m not claiming Bard feels ‘bad’ or that it has issues with damage output. The issue is that a job that is supposed to be defined by its support only has 4 support abilities, with long cooldowns, and effects that don’t feel like they have any real impact.

Paean can remove debuffs but only once every 45 seconds, and generally if there’s debuff mechanics you’ll require more than one Esuna anyway (e.g if people stand in Leviathan puddles), so you can’t take much pressure off healers. Minne affects healer oGCDs but as healers are already given vast amounts of downtime, there generally isn’t a situation where the healers are going to actively gain from the healing boost, and with a 90 second cooldown it can’t be used when needed as an ‘emergency cooldown’. Troubadour is useful, but it’s also been cloned into Tactician and Shield Samba, so it’s not as much a ‘Bard’ utility as it is a ‘ranged dps’ utility

As a Machinist, you have less support but it’s make up for with flashy DPS moves. As a Dancer, you have loads of support options on short cooldowns that feel like they’re actually doing something. Steps also deal damage, Curing Waltz is on a short cooldown (though weird scaling means it only becomes a serviceable heal when you stack with dance partner), Improvisation builds Esprit. There are meaningful interactions between the damage and support elements, and it feels like you’re playing a ‘Dancer’. I feel like having no meaningful interactions between support and damage for Bard (e.g Soul Voice being consumed by shorter cooldown buff songs) has made the Bard job feel much more ‘Ranger’.

In 2.0 they went the wrong way with these interactions and had songs reduce the casters damage, which was massively unpopular. By the time we reach 4.0, while there weren’t any real interactions between the songs and DPS, there was at least some effort. The crit buffs from using songs made it feel like going through your damage song rotation was actively helping the party, even if it was unbalanced. Foe Requiem necessitated MP management and deciding Refresh usage based on whether the Requiem boost outweighed healers needing MP. Requiem also consumed large chunks so it wasn’t too difficult to manage. And you have to watch timing for your cast so it didn’t cut into DPS rotation. Minne didn’t affect abilities but the shorter cooldown made it feel more serviceable as a tool to make healers’ lives easier (more likely to be at times when someone makes a mistake).

My ‘idea I don’t expect to ever see implemented’ is that they should reinforce Bard’s utility as a ‘healer-helper’. Return Requiem, add Regen song, maybe Raise song (though that would make Bard guaranteed in raids again so probably not lol), possibly a direct heal song. Give them all a 1.5 cast time and soul voice cost (so you don’t have to manage mp), and do the same with Paean/Minne/Troubadour. Possibly put them on GCD for damage reduction to user for balance. That would make Bard feel much more like the ‘Bard’ it’s support to be, and give a meaningful interaction between damage and songs (use damage songs, DoT enemy, Repetoire builds Soul Voice, which is used to buff party. And personally I’d happily take across-the-board damage nerfs for something like that to happen in like 6.0 or whatever

[HyoMinPark]

The issue with Paean isn't even its cooldown. In high end content, none of the debuffs present in there are cleansable, which makes it inherently useless in content that matters.

Minne is perfect when you know tankbusters are coming up. Since it boost oGCDs now, and since oGCDs are the first go-to healing spells in any healer's toolkit, tossing Minne on a tank about to get hit is an optimal choice. It is also still good for spread Adlo, despite Catalyze not spreading with the Galvanize. In coordinated environments, Minne is an astounding tool. And it should never be used as an emergency cooldown - it should be carefully planned. Just like all other mitigative and healing tools. It helps even more that Savage encounters are fully scripted.

[Connor]

The issue with Paean isn't even its cooldown. In high end content, none of the debuffs present in there are cleansable, which makes it inherently useless in content that matters.

Minne is perfect when you know tankbusters are coming up. Since it boost oGCDs now, and since oGCDs are the first go-to healing spells in any healer's toolkit, tossing Minne on a tank about to get hit is an optimal choice. It is also still good for spread Adlo, despite Catalyze not spreading with the Galvanize. In coordinated environments, Minne is an astounding tool. And it should never be used as an emergency cooldown - it should be carefully planned. Just like all other mitigative and healing tools. It helps even more that Savage encounters are fully scripted.

While I don’t doubt this is all true, I was writing more from the perspective of standard DF where players aren’t generally going to be coordinating things like Minne/Adlo spread, outside of it happening incidentally, like the healer just so happens to heal the tank when you use Minne on them rather than one causing the other. In a savage raid scenario things like Minne are super useful because you can guarantee that it’ll be able to used when it’s needed because everything can and will be predicted. So despite being a long cooldown, you can plan it out to always be available when it’s needed for a tank buster. In general content though, particularly with first timers, there isn’t as much scope to accurately predict who might need some extra heals (can’t see who’s going to stand in orange until they’re standing in it). By ‘emergency cooldown’, I was thinking more of something you can use reactively when needed as opposed to something you’d hold on to unless things got really bad. Maybe emergency wasn’t the right word as much as more readily available. Naturally I’m not saying we should just use it whenever we want because that would be a little much, but I feel like the 45 second cooldown felt more comfortable for the skill than 90, even if it would mean reducing the buff to 10/15%. And as much as I’d love it I don’t think anyone would take to my idea of having it on GCD with a Soul Voice or MP cost lol

It’s an interesting thought probably for another thread, but I’m not sure how I feel about abilities that are useful in savage but not so much outside it. Dissipation before the changes is one I can think of from the top of my head; in general content you wouldn’t want to sacrifice the healing from fairy because of the DPS loss. But in Savage where you can plan everything out, you know undoubtedly when damage is going to be taken by the tank, which means you can more freely sacrifice the fairy for the extra Energy Drains or for buffed Adlo on the Warrior with Convalescence up. So on the one hand, I do feel like Minne could have something done for it to make it feel more impactful in normal content. But on the other hand, I’m aware it wouldn’t be fair on people who do raid to have these abilities changes to accommodate being used in more general content.

As for Paean unfortunately I can’t think of many ways for an Esuna to be particularly useful because as you say, you can’t esuna things in content that matters anyway. A rework to the ability might be a bit much, but it doesn’t feel useful very often in its current form

[HyoMinPark]

While I don’t doubt this is all true, I was writing more from the perspective of standard DF where players aren’t generally going to be coordinating things like Minne/Adlo spread, outside of it happening incidentally, like the healer just so happens to heal the tank when you use Minne on them rather than one causing the other. In a savage raid scenario things like Minne are super useful because you can guarantee that it’ll be able to used when it’s needed because everything can and will be predicted. So despite being a long cooldown, you can plan it out to always be available when it’s needed for a tank buster. In general content though, particularly with first timers, there isn’t as much scope to accurately predict who might need some extra heals (can’t see who’s going to stand in orange until they’re standing in it). By ‘emergency cooldown’, I was thinking more of something you can use reactively when needed as opposed to something you’d hold on to unless things got really bad. Maybe emergency wasn’t the right word as much as more readily available.

It’s an interesting though probably for another thread, but I’m not sure how I feel about abilities that are useful in savage but not so much outside it. On the one hand, I feel like abilities should be useful anywhere rather than having limited usage until savage. But on the other hand, I’m aware it wouldn’t be fair on people who do raid to have these abilities changes to accommodate being used in more general content

Your mistake is assuming that Troubadour and Minne aren’t useful outside of Savage. They are plenty useful in general content if you know how to time them—even with PUGs, you can still get mileage out of both by simply having a basic knowledge of whatever encounter you are participating in.

Even in general content, most damage is scripted. All bosses are scripted. Trash packs are scripted. The best uses of Minne in a dungeon would be on the tank during trash packs—particularly the larger ones. Your healer will get more mileage out of it that way, as it will buff their healing on the tank that is already taking a truckload of damage. Troubadour can also be used on large packs because, again, you get more mileage out of its 10% damage reduction by using it when the tank will be taking the most damage. I tend to alternate: Troubadour/Minne on one pack, the other on the next pack. And both be back up after the boss is dead for you to use again. I tend to use Minne first depending on how many trash packs there are between bosses—if there are three standard pulls, then Minne can see use on 2/3 of them (Minne > Troubadour > Minne).

Like most cooldowns, these shouldn’t really be used reactively. Even in general content with PUGs, you should have a rough plan of when they would be most useful. Think of them like tank cooldowns: tank cooldowns aren’t used reactively, but proactively. You don’t pop them when you’re at 20% and hope you live—you pop them before to actively prevent more damage, and to try and prevent hitting that 20% HP. I think it’s safe to say that the same applies to Minne and Troubadour.

The longer cooldown on Minne is the trade-off for it now affecting oGCDs. I think it would teeter into broken territory if it was still 45s but worked on all healing oGCDs. Saito mentioned this previously in the thread, but I have to agree with them: the developers have to be very careful with BRD, because they do have a tendency to make the slightest changes and skyrocket it immediately into broken territory. The suggestions you have made (regen song, direct heal song, raise song), while nice, would probably risk making them a hard lock in groups, which would be a repeat of 4.x where MCH fought with casters for a spot instead of BRD (though, with casters having a guaranteed spot now thanks to the 5% party stat buff from having 1 of each of the 5 roles, now it would either be MCH/DNC fighting for the 4th spot with the typical second melee or just dying off completely).


As for Paean, I’ve always thought a small shield would be much better for it compared to an Esuna. That would probably require a longer CD though, depending on the strength and duration of the shield. Personally, I’d rather it function closer to Palisade as a free tank cooldown, but that would also tip the scales in favor of BRD in Savage/Ultimate (at least, for prog), and you have to be careful to maintain the balance between all three.

[Connor]

snip

Well, you’re probably right that I’ve undersold Minne’s worth, and it’s not like I’m not using it because I’d prefer something else. I tend to put it up for either tank busters in boss fights, or in dungeons I’ll use it when the tank gets to around 60/70% while fighting so that it’s timed with the healer using whatever mid-pull healing/regens. I tend to use Troubadour just as the pre-pull begins before going into Minne, though the other way around probably does make more sense since shields etc usually happen pre-pull.

All that said though, my favourite use of Minne is still helping out party members that have taken damage they shouldn’t have. Not that using it for tank busters isn’t helping the party out; I think it’s more about personal perceptions than anything. I guess what I’m trying to say with it is that I’d like to have more freedom to use those kinds of abilities to help the party.

As for balance, I do understand the developers are terrified of Bard reaching the 2.0 release point where people were running with like 4 of them. And I do get that those abilities I suggested would turn Bard into Red Mage on steroids lol. At the same time though, I feel like there can be those kinds of abilities without breaking the balance of the role, but they’d have to come at such a large cost to the Bard’s damage output that it wouldn’t be worth the exchange to any Bard other than myself. I know my opinion isn’t shared by other Bards but I always saw the job as one that sacrifices personal damage to help out the party in some way, rather than vice-versa, but I think using this concept to balance the job has been discarded in favour of the current one where it’s much more in-line with standard DPS utility with the caveat of having DPS that’s also more in-line with them; though it does have a bit more variety with utility than for say, Dragoon or Monk.

Honestly I’ve always though Bard would be better balance if it was more in-like with casters, since rDPS can’t jump too high with utility if it’s gated by cast times and some kind of resource management. I think this is largely due to my own perception of Bard though, since a large part still holds on to the original concept from 1.0, where songs worked as cast buffs instead of auras, and access to Conjurer and Thaumaturge cross-classes gave it a variety of useful support spells. Obviously the game itself was a mess lol, but the concept is what made me ‘fall in love with the job’, and it’s been disappointing for me to see that gradually be taken apart with nothing to replace it for the same kind of ‘feel’. So I do have my own biases when it comes to what I imagine a Bard ‘should be’ like

Also, I feel like there’s some sort of issue causing these balancing problems, though I’m not informed enough to point out exactly what, though I think generally it’s about the ‘utility jobs’. . There are several jobs in this position where any adjustments cause their contributions to jump beyond what they were expected to, or make knee-jerk adjustments to that cause them to be underpowered, like Ninja because of Trick Attack and Scholar with shields / fairy to shoulder healing responsibility etc. I feel like the reason Bard edges so closely toward overpowered is because the developers don’t seem to want to accept that it’s utility has to come with a damage penalty but f some kind. The alternative is what we have now where the utility has be ‘watered down’ to an extent in exchange for more personal DPS. Which is fine in concept, but from my perspective it kind of defeats the purpose of the job in the first place if the damage dealing aspects are the priority for development, since dealing large amounts of damage wasn’t the thing that drew me personally to the job in the first place.

Also apologies to everyone that I let the length of this reply get so out of hand lol

[TcomJ]

Too long of whining

From the person who attacks me first disregarding on all ideas and balance in numbers and evidence on fflog and even the abilities chart. Sure.

[HyoMinPark]

snip

Well, the ideas you had for songs gave me pause to consider either how much BRD's personal damage would have to be nerfed to compensate (I'm thinking of RDM here, as the developer's main argument for it doing the lowest damage of the casters is "It has Verraise", but we all know how useful Verraise becomes when fights shift from progression to farm territory); or how weak they would have to be (I'm thinking of DNC's Curing Waltz - individually you get maybe ~5,000 HP restore, so stacked you'll maybe be lucky to see ~10,000 restored; and, while nice, consider how large our HP pools are right now and how little of an impact it can have being a 60-second ability that actually requires everyone stacked in a 3y radius to be used effectively).

I want more support, I just don't want the tools to feel... lackluster or like they lose value once you shift from prog to farming. With MP, at least, it always had a use (back in the day, and back in SB - it actually had a more versatile use in SB compared to ARR/HW, imo). Now, if they could give us some tools that would be useful in all stages of content, that would be lovely. I think it would be nice for Minne to be AOE - but I suppose they want that to be exclusive to MNK's Mantra and our Minne to have the single-target effect only.

Perhaps they can bring Foe's back at some point and rework it into something. A gauge ability or an oGCD on a CD. Personally, I'd love for it to still use MP, because then our MP bar would have a use at least. As it is now, it just sits there doing nothing.

From the person who attacks me first disregarding on all ideas and balance in numbers and evidence on fflog and even the abilities chart. Sure.

Calling you out for making mistakes in your analysis is a far cry from blatant ad hominem, my dude. You weren't attacking my arguement. You were attacking me because I, what, play DNC now? What's it to you what I play? Not sure why you seem to care so much.

Anyways. The evidence on Everyone's Favorite Website actually points in favor of the arguments that I've been presenting all along: BRD, MCH, and DNC are all very close to one another in terms of rDPS right now; which insinuates that, currently, there is no massive balancing issue between the three. On the fights where they differ, DNC is actually the one far below the other two (this is only for E2S). The only fight where BRD is below DNC is E3S...by a grand total of ~6 rDPS.

At 95th percentile -

E1S:
BRD - 10,629.91
MCH - 10,612.27
DNC - 10,434.35

E2S:
MCH - 12.267.59
BRD - 12,238.91
DNC - 11,707.57

E3S:
MCH - 12,047.56
DNC - 11,859.37
BRD - 11,853.43

E4S:
MCH - 12,213.50
BRD - 12,182.29
DNC - 11,998.84

Uploads for BRD are also high: 8,049 versus the 6,928 DNCs and 6,159 MCHs. Currently, BRD is the second most popular uploaded job in Savage. So, how is it suffering (identity aside)?


As for the abilities chart - you don't stack mitigation outside of prog, and even then, it's better to stagger it if you can survive with just one type (e.g., Reprisal, Passage of Arms, Troub/Tactician/Samba, Heart of Light, Dark Missionary, Divine Veil, spread Adlo, etc.). You stack raid buffs; which, you claiming DNC had 3 partywide buffs is disingenuous when you consider only 1 of them is a raid buff you would actively stack with other raid buffs. Much like how BRD only has 1 raid buff. And MCH has none. The rest of DNC's AOE utility kit is either situational (Improvisation), blatantly lackluster (Curing Waltz), or identical to the jobs you're comparing them to (Shield Samba).

Perhaps this is a terminology difference, but when people refer to "stacking buffs", they are referring to damage buffs. Not healing buffs or mitigation.