Unpopular Opinion: Dungeon design has been bad for a long time

[Ceallach]

You know what? I'm curious about something.

At the start of Totorak there is a split in the path. Both paths have enough cells to start the first boss, and neither path seems to have much difference in trash amounts, so...

Which path do all of you take? Do you follow the path to the left, or do you push straight ahead?

I prefer clearing both paths.

[Stanelis]

You know what? I'm curious about something.

At the start of Totorak there is a split in the path. Both paths have enough cells to start the first boss, and neither path seems to have much difference in trash amounts, so...

Which path do all of you take? Do you follow the path to the left, or do you push straight ahead?

Totorak is a bad example of branching dungeon, because both path are similar and equally boring. Also it is better to go straight ahead from cells management purposes.

[Shurrikhan]

What do you mean by that?

I can be more specific if you can decipher Savageelf's quote first.

In the end I could only take him literally, in the sense that he thinks that alternating between trash mobs and boss fights is something new and inventive that XIV alone came up with. I was pointing out merely that there's no combination of use, change, or variety in and between trash mobs and bosses in XIV that hasn't been done elsewhere.

[linay]

I can be more specific if you can decipher Savageelf's quote first.

In the end I could only take him literally, in the sense that he thinks that alternating between trash mobs and boss fights is something new and inventive that XIV alone came up with. I was pointing out merely that there's no combination of use, change, or variety in and between trash mobs and bosses in XIV that hasn't been done elsewhere.

I think Savagelf was referring to hard mode dungeons where there is a different version of the same dungeon instead of different difficulty setting.

[Hawklaser]

I don't think I ever had a preference for totoraks paths. Didn't tank much and just went with them.

But there is merit to branching paths when done right. Such as a dungeon where one path is more of the standard dungeon affair, with a 2nd path emphasizing stealth & puzzles. Say the overall theme is a storm a location to remove a figure of note. The standard path would be akin to going in through the front and alerting things hence trash & spread out bosses. The stealth path would be akin to finding a way to drop into the command area, this might mean fighting the bosses more boss rush style or in pairs with minimal to no trash.

A dungeon like that would be an interesting one to see what the preferred choice of path would be. As if done right the stealth path could actually be faster to clear but require a more skilled party too.

[Hezzlocks]

I don't think I ever had a preference for totoraks paths. Didn't tank much and just went with them.

But there is merit to branching paths when done right. Such as a dungeon where one path is more of the standard dungeon affair, with a 2nd path emphasizing stealth & puzzles. Say the overall theme is a storm a location to remove a figure of note. The standard path would be akin to going in through the front and alerting things hence trash & spread out bosses. The stealth path would be akin to finding a way to drop into the command area, this might mean fighting the bosses more boss rush style or in pairs with minimal to no trash.

A dungeon like that would be an interesting one to see what the preferred choice of path would be. As if done right the stealth path could actually be faster to clear but require a more skilled party too.

As interesting as that is, it, too, would inevitably fall to one path being almost completely unused. Make the stealth path too easy, everyone does it to speed through the dungeon. Make the stealth path too hard, people will just do the trash to avoid dealing with people failing the stealth path so much. Meanwhile if you make the choice as meaningless as Totoraks and you get reactions like what I've been getting since I asked about it: no one cares.

Don't get me wrong, dungeon design is in need of some variety in designs, but sadly optional paths won't really work as people will always just go the path of least resistance. Even if you give the harder path some incentive, it'll either be not worth the effort, or too good to even consider the other path.

[Sloprano]

For someone who's high point in mmo Dungeons is WoW's Blackrock Depths, chock full with paths, optional bosses, different rooms with different challenges (like the Lyceum) and just getting to the place could be an adventure in itself, most fun I've had in this game was clearing Palace of the Dead for the first time. The act of pulling, recognizing mobs with particulary foul skills (GARM!), using stuns/silence/sleep/blind, only fighting in hallways, getting surprised by a patrol, stepping on a luring trap, eaten by a snake while Frogged. It was all fantastic. I have more fond memories from the times I wiped, then came back and cleared that set, than any of the beautiful and fully scripted fights I cleared on first try in the story.

In retrospect, most surprising and disappointed I've been with a dungeon was the first in Wrath of the Lich King. As I started marking mobs for CC and kill order like I used to do I was told to just aggro the whole lot of them. I did and it was no problem. No particular mob needed ccing, silenced to prevent summoning more mobs, stunned so it didn't run away in fear.

It's different times now and this is a different game. Always found it to be Final Fantasy story first and a mmo after. Big wish would be something inbetween the dungeons we get and the Extremes/Savage. Something challenging 4-man stuff. Indeed I have PotD and HoH and will run them more times to show people how it is, but for a whole sprawling dungeon expertly designed by the proffesionals SE like that would be amazing. Just knowing that a singly moment of overconfidence can lead to loosing all your sacks and sending you straight back to start is a wonderful mix of fear and excitement I know I enjoy.

And not forget, the loot. If it's something that is missing from FFXIV, it's the random loot. In true adventure fashion, clearing PotD sets was one high. Then going out and hanging out in Quarrymill seeing all we got from fireworks to rare dyes and level 50 glamour was the trip to the tavern afterwards. Loot table was so big I still see new things in there. But also more loot drops in the regular dungeons and out in the world. Maybe a glamour, vanity item or something with odd effects. They seem to have a very firm grasp on the item balance for dungeons and Savage. Adding in ilevel 460 world drops is probaly not a good idea, but just something incredibly rare dropping and people knowing it is out there.

[Hawklaser]

As interesting as that is, it, too, would inevitably fall to one path being almost completely unused. Make the stealth path too easy, everyone does it to speed through the dungeon. Make the stealth path too hard, people will just do the trash to avoid dealing with people failing the stealth path so much. Meanwhile if you make the choice as meaningless as Totoraks and you get reactions like what I've been getting since I asked about it: no one cares.

Don't get me wrong, dungeon design is in need of some variety in designs, but sadly optional paths won't really work as people will always just go the path of least resistance. Even if you give the harder path some incentive, it'll either be not worth the effort, or too good to even consider the other path.

Thats ultimately the problem with a branching path. The balancing point of speed, reward, and difficulty between the options is so fine, that it doesn't really work for quick party content. Plus people reference the Lighthouse for DF groups being bad at math/puzzles (I missed that one so don't know) but I remember plenty of DPS in Wanderers Palace that had problems counting leading to many tank insta-gibs from the last boss as one of its moves did 1k per add killed then reset.

It doesn't mean that the branching stuff can't still be used for areas that are not really intended for the duty finder, or maybe find a way to differentiate the two paths for use in the finder.

[linay]

It doesn't mean that the branching stuff can't still be used for areas that are not really intended for the duty finder,

Everything in FFXIV is intended for the duty finder if what I'm hearing about the Japanese data centers is true. And even in NA, only Ultimate doesn't have a version of the zone used in duty finder.

or maybe find a way to differentiate the two paths for use in the finder.

Any significant differentiation would likely cause people to use party finder to ensure the whole group agrees on which path to take before going in because there will be times when the group may disagree based on different objective, which would defeat the point in case of dungeons.

[JackHatchet]

I remember in early World of Warcraft the first time I ran Stratholme, and realized they had patrols you had to strategically pull. That stuff blew my mind! I went into Warcraft 3's map editor and tried to recreate something similar. It was incredibly hard to get all the mobs not to link to each other LOL.

I think the problem lies more in mentality than it does design. But I could be wrong. One of the things I greatly dislike about FFXIV's duty community, is that the vast majority of people don't actually enjoy the content. They just want to rush to the end for the reward. It's all about the destination and none of the journey. And it conflicts with my personal philosophy of that "games should be fun." I should only run content that I actively enjoy. And if I get rewarded at the end! That's great, but that the content itself is the reward. Eureka was a absolute emotional disaster for me, because people get so caught up in 'do it for the reward!" But Eureka itself was not a fun journey. I can't imagine anyone who'd actually play Eureka for Eureka's sake if there was no reward for doing so.

Anyways, back to FFXIV duties. I love that they put those little lore notes in there that you can read. But I hate how people rush you past them. I feel like I could enjoy the current content pretty well if it wasn't the player mentality trying to steam-roll it as fast as possible.

---------------

It also could just be the level cap thing. I just remember Warcraft dungeons being amazing fun, because they were my 'choice' for leveling up. Leveling up is all about finding the most enjoyable thing in the game, and then doing it for EXP. Some folks do quests. Some do pvp. Others do dungeons. And dungeons was my life. I ran them, because I enjoyed them. Though it's unfair to compare the two in this regard. Because I leveled up a lot of dudes in Warcraft and got to enjoy a lot of the leveling duties. In FFXIV, once your cap, you pretty much sit there. I'm lvl 70 on almost all of my jobs, and if I want exp--my choices are extremely limited. At level cap. I see no real reason to run duties in FFXIV.

Oh, you want to know what would be cool? If the max level crafted gear was crafted using components gained from the max level 4 man duties.