[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

If you're not interested in reading your quest journal or see the cutscenes, will you really be interested in reading an explanation? I don't care if you skip the cutscene, but you really shouldn't ask that if you can't bother..

I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also.

That's a lie and a half since Developers have readily admitted other faults before.

Im not talking about other faults, Im talking about this exact Minfilia screw up. And by your over-confident tone I assume that you have a proof about them accepting their mistakes with writing of Minfilia?

[QT_Melon]

I'm sorry, again your reasoning doesn't gel up and at this point you're just shifting goal posts.

[Hezzlocks]

I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also

Hating one character is not a good reason to skip the cutscenes and dialogue, tbh, especially considering how much interest in the story you claim to have. I didn't like Moenbryda, I still watched those cutscenes. I didn't like that bastard brother of Yotsuyu's, I still watched those cutscenes. I *initially* didn't like Thancred (forgive me for my sins, I have long since learned) but I still watched any cutscene with him. Basically speaking, if you're interested in the story, you won't skip just because one character you don't like is involved. Why? *Because they are a part of the story, and in this case a particularly key part of the story*

[PeppermintBrown]

I don't think that Ryne is necessarily them reacting to criticism about Minfilia.

It fits in well with the Amarot conflict. You have a similar situation. Either the old Minfilia can return or the new Minfilia can flourish, but not both. At first Thancred wants to restore 'his' Minfilia at the expense of Ryne, but eventually grows to embrace Ryne and let go of Minfilia.

A foil to Emet-Selch who cannot let go of his old world and despite trying to bond with mortals, cannot bring himself to accept the current world and wants to sacrifice it to restore the old.

So it feels to me like there's more going on here than a simple 'oh crap we messed up with Minfilia, let's make a new one.

[TankHunter678]

I was pretty interested in the Eden's plotline since it was mentioned that it will shed some light on Minfilia in the past and her doings. What got me off is that Ryne has taken a major part in it and since my hatred for her is yet to be extinguished, I decided to skip all Eden cutscenes just like I did in msq. It does not mean Im not interested in it, I still am, I just didnt want to watch cutscenes, thats all. Havent checked journal yet maybe because they commonly do not write much there or even nothing at all. Still I think I should do it, thanks for the advice. But yeah, would love to hear more thorough explanation also.

Im not talking about other faults, Im talking about this exact Minfilia screw up. And by your over-confident tone I assume that you have a proof about them accepting their mistakes with writing of Minfilia?

If you skip the cutscenes it means you have no interest in the story at all. As the story is in the cutscenes. If all it took was one character performing a very in character act that lead to their demise to get you to dump the entire rest of the MSQ and dump the raid storyline then honestly you were not interested in the story to begin with. You were invested in one character and only went through the cutscenes before that moment because you wanted to see the one character you were invested in again.

[RopeDrink]

She was no more meant to fight than Tataru was and having her not participate in fighting was completely appropriate.

You're mistaking a comment about lack of something for a statement about how they should have done that thing. That is not what was said or implied. The quote you are referencing was regarding her lack of contribution in any way, including battle. Nobody said Minfilia should have fought or expected her to be a fighter - but saying she didn't (when mentioning total lack of contribution outside of invisible matters) is no less a fact. The point is she was seemingly designed to contribute next to nothing outside of dialogue or quest-giving. This is a fault of the writers/developers for not adding more to her, but is no less true when compared to practically any other supporting Scion.

they utilized her quite well throughout ARR

She was there to be a leader/diplomat (MSQ wise), but this was handled in a manner where she was devoid of this 80% of the time and was there primarily to be the main Scion quest giver. Her role was never investigated to any noticeable degree, leaving you with little else other than a Princess Peach giving you quests unless they just happened to be in a cutscene that might involve actually talking to other people (which is about the extent of her usage), so no, she was NOT utilized well in ARR. Many will argue she was not utilized whatsoever outside of her being captured to further the plot. Twice. Which is just more proof of poor utilization. Compare it to almost any other Scion and the difference is noticeable. Even Alisaie, who was at her least prominent stage in ARR.

I like Minfilia and always have, but that doesn't change the fact that the only thing I will ever remember about her in ARR is that all meetings with her would involve being given information/quests, at a point in the game that is absolutely panned for being wall-to-wall filler quests, and that's it. The only exception is the ARR ending in Uldah, which tried to give all Scions (even Minfilia) something to do.

You can compare this to Urianger if you wish, but the huge difference is that Urianger is a FAR more fleshed character who has been a regular contributor through the expansions. Minfilia was not. Do not assume that the obnoxious trek to the Rising Stones on a regular basis is a detriment only to Minfilia. It wouldn't matter who you had to do it for - nobody liked that - but that does not make her comparable to Urianger just because he was put in that same position for a spell, because he was a far more fleshed character actually doing things, and often visited in relation to the Primal quests (i.e. unlocking content).

She was also only captured twice in all of 2.0-2.x. I won't say she was handled perfectly, but there was nothing hate-worthy in how she was handled.

If that were true, you wouldn't be a minority trying to claim such. Again, it is not that people dislike 'Minfilia', it is the fact that she was undoubtedly the WORST handled Scion by a country mile. Trying to claim she was handled well in any capacity is madness at this point. Even Moenbryda (despite her brief screen-time) was far more memorable compared to Minfilia. Minfilia was clearly designed to be an important figure, yet I wager a vast majority of stalwart FFXIV players vaguely remember much about her other than the meme-worthy things already mentioned, at least until her cameo in HSW.

Despite the jokes about "Pray return to the waking sands," I never got the impression that anyone actually hated anything about her aside from the location of the Waking Sands, which again, is more problematic with Urianger than with Minfilia.

See above. The location is just one aspect. As we've already said, Minfilia herself was a friendly and likeable character - handled in a completely unengaging way. When heading to the Waking Sands to meet Urianger, it was almost always to push forward a quest related to Primals/Content, which is infinitely better than being sent there for more fetch-quests that pad the MSQ play-time, with a hefty chunk of them being given through Minfilia.

You should not feel bad for liking a character (no matter what other people's opinions of them might be), but you'll have a hard time trying to convince people that Minfilia was either a) handled well at any point or b) critique about her handling is 'unjust'. It is not, and I say that as someone who never had a problem with her. The vast majority of criticism people have tirelessly supplied over the last few pages are, as far as I'm concerned, very accurate, and focus on her handling rather than "I hate Minfilia". There's a huge difference, and it won't be swept under a rug by saying it's not right/fair for a virtual character with barely any depth or usage when compared to any other in the roster. It is a fault of the writers/developers. Simple.

[Iscah]

I liked Minfilia too - but I think it absolutely fits her character to leave in this way, and she would never want to live again at the cost of Ryne's free will. Thancred comes to understand that in the end.

Tataru is great. Whenever things are getting terrible, Tataru can provide emotional support or comic relief, something Minfilia generally needed from us. As a result, Tataru ended up being a better version of our "non-combat support" than Minfilia herself.

I actually liked Minfilia relying on our character for support - showing that vulnerability and 'human-ness'. She clearly valued our character as a friend and felt she could confide in us.

...that I just want to add one little thing to, since pretty much everything else I would have wanted to say has already been said. Its a special pet peeve of mine, I'll admit that, but here it goes: I think I already mention how I'm not a fan of her eye candy status and outfit - theres nothing wrong with pretty characters, dont get me wrong, but please, please... dont make that the primary thing about them. Or contradricte their character - which is what I feel happend here.

I agree on this - and I don't think her outfit looks all that appealing anyway, though I'm not the "target audience" (for lack of a better term) so maybe can't judge.

If the developers want to get rid of a character, they’ll do what they did to Fordola. She had a really good arc in 4.1; but Japan did not like her character, so they relegated her to a Lodestone “Tales of the Storm” post and wrapped her story up there off-screen.

People keep assuming that was "the end" for her, but I never saw any reason to take it that way. It always looked like a way of keeping up with what she's doing until she's ready to come back into the game story again... and now the other end of that thread has been picked up in the Lv80 SMN quest, a job whose storyline has always sat quite close to MSQ events. Perhaps she and Arenvald will move into being involved in those quests from now onwards, like Hilda has moved out of MSQ into the Lv70+ MCH quests.

We agreed that we would desolve the Scions and just keep working togther without forming this organisation.

We never decided to "dissolve the Scions", just that we didn't need to elect a new person to Minfilia's position. The Scions are still very much the active organisation we are working for.

The issue is you're trying to defend her virtue like she's an actual person.

This has already been touched on, but we absolutely should be (and generally are) talking about these characters like they are actual people. Any time we express anything about their personalities or "what they would want" or what they did or thought... we're talking about them as living people from a country called Eorzea, not a programmed cluster of polygons in a video game, or plot devices in a narrative.

So first of all I want to say thank you to all of you whos been participating in this conversation. I actually managed to turn it into a relatively civil discussion with people on both sides.

Sorry, but you don't get to claim credit for that. Strange a concept as it might be on the Internet, the Lore subforum is very good at civil discussion. It's not happening due to your influence.


----


And on some offshoots to the main conversation....

Well the solution for returning the Scions back to the source is already mentioned being....

that Exarch is planning to awaken G'raha Tia in the source version of Crystal Tower so he can learn to return their souls back to their body at the end of 5.0. However, he has to learn how to master the powers of the Crystal Tower to perform the Summoning skill Exarch has.

This will of course lead to events in 5.1 involving events in the Source.

Is this actually confirmed somewhere? Or is it just some people interpreting his line at the end of the MSQ and that's it? If the shot had then cut to somewhere else and showed younger G'raha awakening or CT machinery buzzing to life or something, I'd agree. As it stands, though, I don't think he was actually talking to anyone but himself there. It sounded like an "Alright, <refers to self in 3rd person>. Time to go to work!", self-motivational pep talk.

Definitely not confirmed, or even implied. I would also take his closing line as simply talking to himself - perhaps specifically to that 'young', adventurous aspect of his personality that's he's had to keep hidden and dormant for nearly a century.

Also, as I've said elsewhere - because the Crystal Tower is optional and treated as "hasn't happened yet" until the individual player completes it, it would be difficult-if-not-impossible to bring young G'raha into the MSQ as his current status is variable. The time-travel plot sidesteps that issue by putting him past that point and into "definitely already happened (for him)" territory.

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

2) Honestly, I'm not even sure if Thancred is supposed to be the "boyfriend/husband"-type. Hes a womanizer in the end - in Shadowbringers end aswell, considering how he (or Urianger?) mentions something about some girls he went out to drinks with.

It's side dialogue if you talk to Thancred post-credits!

THANCRED
People came from malms around to join the festivities, but most seem to have stumbled home by now.
Even so, I daresay Norvrandt will echo to the sound of clinking mugs for some while yet.
I thought to indulge in a little revelry myself last night...until Urianger began to list all the names of my drunken conquests. I ended up drinking water. Water.

There's also the much earlier instance at the Rising Stones (right back in post-ARR) where you can come across him being confronted by five of his ex-girlfriends at once...

[EdwinLi]

As someone who plays using the Japanese, this is very true.

It is a cultural thing I believe.

JP community is more accepting of the Brother and Sister relationship without being blood related but Western community is seen more to be accepting of Father and daughter relationships for non-blood related people.

It is part of the reason why wenever got the other version of Nier 1 game where the MC is a Older Brother.

[Savagelf]

I like Ryne that minifila give all her power to Ryne I said I love see her come to source what tatura and minifila mother view would be I think they embrace her to. I glad Ryne can fight this is better for her it doesn't show she weak and defenseless

[QT_Melon]

Minfilia seems to be a Japanese trope/writing type to me I see from time to time. I can think of one American character similar to this trope (X-men's Jean Grey) but I usually see it more in Japanese writing. Which is probably why so many didn't find her that interesting. I think ironically another character that comes off that way is also from another Final Fantasy - 15. Lunafreya. Both seem to be this purity/mother type that if you analyze them have a lot of strength but in terms of interacting with our character - are probably the most boring types for many. I think it's also how people's culture view these types that it also causes a lot of division amongst the audience.


90% of that character's being is to push reactions from other members around him/her.

For example, a there are as many that found the tragedy of Romance with FF15's where other people were like..."who was she again?" but we most felt sorry for Noctis than both of them.

Minfilia "on paper" has probably some of the most interesting faucets of her - tragic past and relation with Thancred, her Echo ability and fusing with Hydaelyn. When she talks about echo its done in such a way that's like "yeah yeah, on to the next quest" and the time that she's involved where it piques our interest is her conversation with Elidibus.

Minfilia seems to be the fuel for Thancred's emotions the most. Her joining with Hydaelyn and later with Ryne. It was really the same way I felt about Jean Grey as while she's powerful she felt like a device to serve emotional conflict for the men around her, Cyclops, Wolverine (and that uncomfortable bit with Prof. X). The time I found her remotely interesting was finally the Phoenix Saga and much in that vein I found Minfilia more interesting subsequently with her joining of Hydaelyn. It wasn't just that they became beings of great power, but the conflict with it.