[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Also since when did "I like this character but she was badly written" even become some logical argument in KEEPING said character? That just sounds like keeping something that doesn't work. In art if something isn't working it's perfectly fine to let it go.

And why should it be not? I just point out how could things turn out if SE putted a bit more effort into Minfilia. They only gave up on her because fans didnt want to see two loading screens to get to her, didnt like her attire and didnt like how she doesnt fight with you. But imagine if they decide to put a bit more effort. So, you have Minfilia who spent 100 years in the body of countless Minfilias in the First who fought and died, she gained wisdom and, I guess, power. Do you really think that after all these years spent she will be as useless as she was before rebirth, the same "pray return to Waking Sands" Minfilia? I highly doubt that. They could easily return her to the story and it would tie in perfectly: the long awaited reunion, everyone are happy, Thancred will stop being all butthurt, reunion with F'lhaminn. And Minfilia could be reborn being the more powerful and maybe she could even actually... fight! But no, lets create this cheap facade with ultimate sacrifice and giving a chance to a young girl. So meh.

And listen, what did you expect? I witnessed how a character I like became a victim of poor writing and backass storytelling. And I know just the ways they could do it better. What did you expect me to put up with it and not even let out a single whine about it on forums? Of course not.

But that doesn't mean they have to forget Minfilia. Instead they pledge to remember her forever, to hold her high in their minds as they build a better world. For what would be a better legacy than a new hero to hold up Minfilia's ideals in her stead?

I must admit, I quite liked your description of it. Looking at it this way actually made me feel a bit more comfortable around the whole thing. But I still have to say that thats why I love AD&D Alignments. You can play as a Chaotic Good character and don't care about stupid ultimate sacrifices, decisions between saving the world or saving the ones you love. It was with invention of jRPGs this crap became common and maybe after first dozen of titles such complex choices and stories were very interesting but now I just go meh at it. Like, again? Again its some noble soul who decide to sacrifice himself in order to build a better world/bring balance to the force/have a better legacy? Its such a well used trope this days it really became a mark of lack of better ideas. It would be such a breath of fresh air to finally see characters who only care about themselves, just like Chaotic Good but at the same time, fight bad guys and, well, save the world but with minimal losses. But not in jRPGs. Not with SE.

[Ilenya]

They only gave up on her because fans didnt want to see two loading screens to get to her, didnt like her attire and didnt like how she doesnt fight with you.

Source? Because it feels more like this was planned since 2.55 when she ran back in to hitch a ride on the Flow.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Source? Because it feels more like this was planned since 2.55 when she ran back in to hitch a ride on the Flow.

Thats speculations, of course but looked very much like so. Like they wanted to get rid of unwanted character and in ShB they patch plot holes introducing Ryne taking heritage.

[CaesarCV]

It would be such a breath of fresh air to finally see characters who only care about themselves, just like Chaotic Evil but at the same time, fight bad guys and, well, save the world but with minimal losses. But not in jRPGs. Not with SE.

I'm kind of confused here. So you're saying that characters only care about themselves...but not really? I mean, there are a few examples of that, and they're not necessarily more common or uncommon than the opposite. There are tons of tropes about similar situations to what you describe, even if the way you describe it seems rather contradictory.

How would your proposed solution (Minfilia is alive! Minfilia Forever!) fit with the greater themes of the game or expansion though? These things don't just (or shouldn't) exist in a vacuum. It's not like they're just throwing darts to see who lives, who dies, and what happens. All of it has to be (or at least should be) in the service of a greater narrative and theme. How would that all fit into the greater themes of the game?

What did you want to happen, and what did you want it to say?

[CaesarCV]

Thats speculations, of course but looked very much like so. Like they wanted to get rid of unwanted character and in ShB they patch plot holes introducing Ryne taking heritage.

If you read my post you'd know EXACTLY WHY THAT's not the case. That whole scenario is meant to demonstrate the themes of the game. Honestly Shadowbringers has done a WAY better job of being thematically cohesive than previous expansions.

I'd agree with you if you were talking about Lyse and Stormblood. Her role really seems like it was originally meant for Minfilia (feelings of uselessness, skill as a leader, dad who's a famed Ala Mighan Resistance member), but that doesn't apply to Shadowbringers at all.

[Claymore65]

Yeah, I'm going to echo CaesarCV's opinions here.

The Minifilia-> Ryse plotline is a microcosm of the Asican->Shards plotline. The Ascians want to sacrifice the new forms of life to bring back the old, and Thancred starts off the expansion on that side of the conflict. He wanted to sacrifice the new life (Ryse) for the old (Minfilia). However, through the course of the expansion, Thancred realizes his folly, and decides to let her grow into her own person. It wouldn't have felt right to sacrifice her just to bring an old character back.

As an aside, I want to explain some of why I wasn't personally a fan of Minfilia, and why people tend to think of her as useless. As someone who normally enjoys "non-combat" characters in various media, I found Minfilia to be more grating and useless than normal. There are a number of reasons for this.

Perhaps most importantly, Minfilia is directly tied to terrible gameplay. Minfilia is extremely grating from a gameplay perspective. She has two primary gameplay contributions: First to pull you back to the Waking Sands (after literally calling you) just to explain things and oftentimes send you back to wherever you just were. The Waking Sands is one of the only places without an Aethertye, so you have to drop everything you're doing to go back there. That is annoying every time it happens, and oftentimes it doesn't accompany an interesting story reveal or anything. Her second primary gameplay contribution is...fetch quests. Whereas the other Scions are directly introduced with something cool (helping you fight Ascians in the introductory storylines for the city states), she's introduced by...giving you fetch quests. This is a terrible first impression, and considering she complains about how she feels useless, and then doesn't do anything to fix it, it causes a lot of problems.

The Bigger problem though, is that everything "useful" Minfilia does is Off-Screen. Minfilia is supposed to be the primary Negotiator...but we almost never see her negotiating, or at least in interesting conversations. Instead, that honor goes to Alphinaux, who we do see making clever statements in debates and negotiations, making his skills in diplomacy seem extremely useful. Minfilia rarely felt like she's leading a debate, and the more interesting aspect of her conversations goes to the other Scions. For example, Y'Shtola is the one who calls out the Maelstrom for their aggressive actions that summoned Titan, not Minfilia. She remains remarkably passive in cutscenes, which doesn't lend credibility to her supposed diplomacy skills. Her other supposed talent is in managing the Scions and handling the bureaucracy but...once again this is either only shown through fetch quests (which are annoying). While realistically bureaucracy and logistics are invaluable skills to possess, and they're under-represented in media, they're also the boring part of war/adventuring. Since those are her primary skills they need to make them feel useful, and considering most people's opinion of Minfilia, the story failed in that regard. While we are told that the Scions would fall apart without her leadership, we aren't shown the times where she's critical to our success. We're only told that she's important. She's also supposed to be the moral support for the scions but...more often than not, we have to be her moral support. While vulnerability is really cool to see in a character, combined with her lack of on-screen assistance or combat utility, it feels like she's useless. While I'm sure there are examples of her being "useful" in the text, the fact I can't recall them easily off-hand is a problem in itself. Her coolest moment in ARR is...resisting torture, I guess? Which is impressive, but doesn't really endear me to her. For her to remain, she needed more on-screen, visible contributions to the cause than vaguely defined "leadership".

Non-combat characters can work really well, even in FFXIV. For example, Tataru is generally well-liked, and she is terrible in a combat situation. However, she never feels useless. Tataru is always shown working her hardest to help. She's shown trying to learn how to fight, even if she's comically ineffective. She manages the finances, even personally learning to Mine and Sew so she can contribute to keep the lights on. In Heavensward, she works in a bar to gather information to help our cause, oftentimes providing critical plot clues. She literally ends up cheerfully blackmailing a pirate with that information later. Tataru is great. Whenever things are getting terrible, Tataru can provide emotional support or comic relief, something Minfilia generally needed from us. As a result, Tataru ended up being a better version of our "non-combat support" than Minfilia herself.

Minfilia was (rightfully) re-tooled into the "Word of the Mother" role, which was a fascinating development for her, but overall I think the Ryne development in Shadowbringers was fantastic. Ryne is an adorable character that I can't wait to see grow and develop more.
Sorry, I've been wanting to rant about that for awhile, ha ha.

[Eloah]

well stated statement

I feel this is the right of it. You aren't saying Minfilia is bad in general, it's just peoples perception based on how we interact with her. It's sorta like hearing rumors about someone and just believing them without actually getting to know the person. And while it is true the Scions "fell apart" without her, it never really felt like it to us.

And on the subject of Tataru, she's a spy you know, lol.

[Khavir]

But that flashback with Thancred and awakened Minfilia clearly says that there was some sort of romantic feelings. He wanted nothing more than for her to return, I dont think it was just him being overprotecive. He cared for her and this care was more then just how you care about your daughter.

Thancred considered her to be like a daughter. He's like 20 years older than her. I think you had a crush on her and are inserting your feelings into a game.

[Vidu]

Thancred considered her to be like a daughter. He's like 20 years older than her. I think you had a crush on her and are inserting your feelings into a game.

To get those facts straight: Thancred is 32, Minfilia 27 - however: her father died when she was around 12, so when Thancred started taking care of her as a father-figure he was 17. While 5 years arent such a big deal when you're 32 and 27, they kinda are when its 12 and 17. Its extremly creepy for me to think about Thancred watching Minfilia grow up and thinking more and more of her as wife-material and less and less of a daugther. Almost like he'd been grooming her *shiver*

Well written and very agreable statement

...that I just want to add one little thing to, since pretty much everything else I would have wanted to say has already been said. Its a special pet peeve of mine, I'll admit that, but here it goes: I think I already mention how I'm not a fan of her eye candy status and outfit - theres nothing wrong with pretty characters, dont get me wrong, but please, please... dont make that the primary thing about them. Or contradricte their character - which is what I feel happend here.
The important role during ARR that Minfilia is supposed to fill is that of a diplomant. That we never get to see her actually negoiate anything is one problem. That I couldnt take a diplomant in a pink leather outfit seriously the second one. And no, shes not wearing that because its hot in Thanalan. Her outfit isnt practical for her diplomatic role nor is it for hot weather - leather is terrible with heat after all...
All of this screams "I'm just here to be pretty to look at!" to me - we're being told that she is somehow doing important stuff, but we never get to see her actually do that! All we get to see is her, in that outfit thats totall impractical.

[Eloah]

To get those facts straight: Thancred is 32, Minfilia 27 - however: her father died when she was around 12, so when Thancred started taking care of her as a father-figure he was 17. While 5 years arent such a big deal when you're 32 and 27, they kinda are when its 12 and 17. Its extremly creepy for me to think about Thancred watching Minfilia grow up and thinking more and more of her as wife-material and less and less of a daugther. Almost like he'd been grooming her *shiver*.

I was gonna mention something akin to this, but my service cut out and everything I wrote was lost to the flood, lol.

Anyways, while saying Thancred acts like a father figure to Minfilia isn't inaccurate, a better way of putting it is he's like her older brother, who took care of her after their father died. It's not unheard of for an older sibling to step into the void that a parent left after their departure. And in regards to the whole Minfilia Ryne issue, that is rooted in real life psychology. Basically, Ryne is the product of an event that created her, and the event and the product cannot be separated for what they really are. A "nicer" example would be along the lines of Ryne is Minfilia's daughter, but Minfilia died in childbirth. Thancred becomes the caretaker of Ryne, since he's the next closest "reletive", but Thancred is having a difficult time separating the fact that Ryne didn't cause Minfilia's death. He had history with Minfilia, but currently has no connection to Ryne. So if you could sacrifice someone you have no connection with to get back someone you do have one with, would you? Also, a "worse" example to this scenario is Arenvald, for those who know his history.

Basically, Thancred had to fall in love with Ryne, just like he had to do with Minfilia. And the way he falls in love with them is given away by the final boss of the well. Storge: Familial Love.