Theory on Hydaelyn and Zodiark’s nature

[ObsidianFire]

The only thing that went wrong with the Sundering was that Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch were not Sundered (most likely). They are (as far as we know) the only beings who remember anything about life before the Sundering. All the major "problems" that happened as a result of the Sundering can be traced back to Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch trying to get their own world back at the expense of all the life on the Source/Shards. All other life on the Source/Shard has no idea that the Ancients came before them and have no reason to even go messing around with the other Shards/Source since they would have no reason to know they exist. It's only with the Ascians meddling that we know other Shards existed and the other Shards started being destroyed which is what kicked off this entire plot.

I'd be very interested in knowing what problems can be traced back to the Sundering that have nothing to do with the Ascians meddling in the world order.

And I am very, very, very interested in learning how Lahbrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch managed to escape being Sundered along with everything else.

[QT_Melon]

Well. Do we know that as a fact that she intended to sunder EVERYONE or Just keep Zodiark at bay? I mean there is a difference. Hydaelyn speaks more like a program to do a specific function than designing how the world should work

That's not to say I'm not interested in how the 3 were able to avoid the sundering, but it seems like the consequence of Binding Zodiark was the sundering of everyone else since it shattered reality?

[Trunks]

again, where does it ever imply they were forced to do anything, let alone Zodiark's "dominating will"?

Zodiark was the "will of the star made manifest". Emet-Selch describes his tempering thus (emphasis mine):

We summoned Him, as your kind might summon a primal--albeit an infinitely more powerful one. And like one of your primals, He tempered us. It was only natural. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness.

Not sure what to call that if not "domination". It's vague as to who was tempered, but the way he phrases it makes it sound like a widespread thing. I doubt "we Ascians" refers to just the Convocation.

Anyway, as to the forced sacrifice, this story is told to us by Hythlodaeus. This is the chronology of events he describes:

1. Doom befalls the Ascian civilization.

2. Half of the Ascians voluntarily sacrifice themselves to summon Zodiark, who halts the calamity. [It's stated that Creation magic going out of control is fueling the destruction. It's still speculative, but it stands to reason that Zodiark's tempering may have been the means by which order was restored, as Zodiark exerted his will over those practitioners of Creation magic.]

3. The world remains devastated, the lands blighted, the waters poisoned. To restore the world, another half of the Ascians voluntarily sacrifice themselves. The cycle of life begins anew. (Something gave me the impression that the "new" life was not the same as the "old" life, but I can't remember where that came from.)

4. The Convocation decides that they will nurture the new life on the planet. Then, at the right time, they would sacrifice some of its life to Zodiark to restore those who had been lost in the preceding sacrifices to carry on as stewards of their world. This precipitates open conflict among the Ascians. Some object that the "new world" belongs to "those newly born" - and they sacrifice themselves to summon Hydaelyn.

Indeed, this last part remains the Ascians' intention. After the Rejoining, they will forcibly sacrifice the survivors on the Source to restore their people to life. This was a major plot point at the end of the story.

What I'm really curious about is what Emet-Selch's interest in us was all about. He mentions seeking someone "able to endure the necessary pain" to "brave the path of lesser tragedy", provided that we're able to contain the Light of the Lightwardens. From the things that he says, I think he does regret the slaughter and devastation, but believes it's his duty to see things through at any cost. I wonder if he's implying there's another way to go about Rejoinings, or if it's something else.

All that said, the Echo is one of the most mysterious things in the game right now and we have very, very little information about where it comes from.

Not only that, but there's also conflicting information about it. There's that conversation in Matoya's cave which pretty much says that the Echo and Blessing of Light are the same thing - which makes no sense, especially given what's happened with Zenos and the fact that Hydaelyn is herself a primal. Worse is that Krile, who does not contradict this claim, was of the Students of Baldesion, which existed to study the Echo.

Lahabrea describes it as the "power to break down the barriers of existence". That could very well be a consequence of the Sundering. I still think the most plausible explanation is that it is an Ascian power and that Hydaelyn reincarnates shards of the souls who summoned her to forestall calamities, which is why we possess it.

[ObsidianFire]

Well. Do we know that as a fact that she intended to sunder EVERYONE or Just keep Zodiark at bay? I mean there is a difference. Hydaelyn speaks more like a program to do a specific function than designing how the world should work

That's not to say I'm not interested in how the 3 were able to avoid the sundering, but it seems like the consequence of Binding Zodiark was the sundering of everyone else since it shattered reality?

I think Hydaelyn was created to supplant Zoidark as the system the world was operating on. The only problem is, by the time Hydaelyn was summoned, Zoidark had the aether of 75% of the Ascian population and Hydaelyn had the aether of however many people summoned her. Hydaelyn is being summoned with far less aether then Zoidark has. So I think Sundering Zoidark is how Hydaelyn (or more likely, the people who summoned her) got around the problem of her being weaker then Zoidark. Instead of Hydaelyn sealing a Zoidark that was so much more powerful then she was, she split him into 14 Zoidarks that were in her power range. Only problem is, Zoidark is the Will of the Star, so Sundering him probably meant everything on the Star got Sundered too.

What bears repeating is that Zoidark and Hydaelyn aren't just coming up with ideas on their own. In a lot of respects, they are more like AIs. They can only do the things their creators programed them to do. So I think Hydaelyn's Sundering of the world was less something she did on accident and more something the Ancients who designed/summoned her knew was going to happen before the world was Sundered. For them, the choice was probably less about being Sundered or not and more about getting sacrificed to Zoidark or not.

So I think the real question is not "did Hydaelyn intend to Sunder the Star when she Sundered Zoidark." It is rather: "why did Hydaelyns Summoners decide to Sunder the Star".

[QT_Melon]

One other small curiosity, is why besides the obvious calamities killed off knowledge of research - why the scholars had the natures of light and dark elements which both of these primals are based from wrong for so long and letting it stay that way given that we at least had one Asican around that would understand the nature of these two aspects.

Just wondering if there was a certain advantage of not saying it other than just a fun reveal that doesn't tie into anything else.

[Erendis]

And I am very, very, very interested in learning how Lahbrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch managed to escape being Sundered along with everything else.

I does interest me very much how they escaped sundering. Perhaps they were not on the Source at the time? If so, where were they? The moon? Is moon sundered or not?

[Alleo]

I said nothing about whether or not we need to rejoin. I am questioning the fact that "We just leave things as they are" because they still are a problem. The sundering didn't leave a perfect solution, we've seen the consequences of that conflict. That doesn't mean the remaining Ascian(s) are right, but is defeating them really just the end all solution? No one is going to force a rejoining? That is never guaranteed. There can lie in different set of circumstances.

What I was pondering if in the end we do have to stop being co dependent upon said system. It was posed in another thread that we don't know if say death of Hydaelyn and Zodiark would cause reality to crumble and everything to rejoin. It seems at the moment that has less to do with either primal than the forcing of the athereal flow in various aspects. Eden seems to be also demonstrating or making parallels.

Well you said that you wanted to use the creation magic and create new life. That is only possible if we get our souls complete because we do not have the ability right now thanks to our imperfect souls. Also a rejoining as far as we know right now means that the souls will be rejoined too.(or it will become really cramped on the source...I also have a hard time seeing something like a super planet with all shards on it and nobody died as even a possibility in this game)

Most of the big problems have arrived because of the Ascians. Of course without them there would still be conflict because that is the nature of the people (thus its much better to not give creation magic back) but it would probably be never so huge and threating to rejoing a shard without them, because for that to happen you have to do it at the same time on source and shard. So yes I do believe the: "Leave things as they are" would be the best for us.

[QT_Melon]

I said nothing about using creation magic. I said we should be creating NEW life. Like life outside the use of primal and magical interference :P

Of course as much as the Ascians were behind a lot of influences, where we can just easily blame them, the conflicts are still there and even with all of them dead some of that more dangerous knowledge and primal summoning is still there, not to mention each shard isn't exactly tipped in some even amount of aspects/elements.


Basically keeping the status quo does keep the possibility of the same thing happening, or the two eldest primals comes to terms with each other and actually be together side by side/ all made one...or we don't have either and learn and live without doing creation magic and evolve on our own :P

[Alleo]

I said nothing about using creation magic. I said we should be creating NEW life. Like life outside the use of primal and magical interference :P

Of course as much as the Ascians were behind a lot of influences, where we can just easily blame them, the conflicts are still there and even with all of them dead some of that more dangerous knowledge and primal summoning is still there, not to mention each shard isn't exactly tipped in some even amount of aspects/elements.


Basically keeping the status quo does keep the possibility of the same thing happening, or the two eldest primals comes to terms with each other and actually be together side by side/ all made one...or we don't have either and learn and live without doing creation magic and evolve on our own :P

And how would you be able to create new life without the creation magic? I mean you could name it something else but in the end its still a way too risky power.

Also people wont just suddenly change just because they got their souls rejoined (which is the only way to not have a status quo) so suddenly those egoistical NPCs that are at least still harmless enough have the power to create everything they want. Yes even now people can go to war but how worse would that be with unlimited power? Now they can summon a primal (but most of the primals are summoned right now because of what happened after the last calamity (done by Ascians) and the ongoing war with Garlemald (also mostly done by Ascians) but one primal is not as dangerous than all people with complete souls being able to just create whatever they want.

The only reason why the Ancient ones lived in peaceful times (and we only saw one short glimpse of it anyway) was because of their strict regulations in place and their conformity.

[YianKutku]

And how would you be able to create new life without the creation magic? I mean you could name it something else but in the end its still a way too risky power.

People seem to manage it right now. It generally takes one man and one woman at the moment, but maybe FFXIV setting shenanigans can waive that requirement.