[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

[Edax]

Zenos' character is meant to be a shadow to the Warrior of [Light / Darkness]. His narrative purpose is not to advance the overall plot or exposit things about the world's mythos, but to serve as a contrast to the Warrior of [Light / Darkness] and show what they could become if they let battle lust override their concern for the common good.

Being unconcerned with the mythos of the world does not make Zenos a badly written antagonist.

Even if the Warrior of Light gave into battle lust, he/she would still be far far far far more selfless the Zenos. Which means they would still be completely different. And if the Warrior of Light is a healer, then having battle lust as a healer would still be a good thing would it not? He/she would be the ultimate selfless warrior saving lives if they were a battle lusting White Mage. So what would it even say if the Warrior of Light White Mage gave into battle lust and still ended up being completely different then Zenos? If Zenos is a shadow, he's not a very good one. Is he only a shadow to Samurai only because he wields a katana?

[Cilia]

Even if the Warrior of Light gave into battle lust, he/she would still be far far far far more selfless the Zenos. Which means they would still be completely different. And if the Warrior of Light is a healer, then having battle lust as a healer would still be a good thing would it not? He/she would be the ultimate selfless warrior saving lives if they were a battle lusting White Mage. So what would it even say if the Warrior of Light White Mage gave into battle lust and still ended up being completely different then Zenos? If Zenos is a shadow, he's not a very good one. Is he only a shadow to Samurai only because he wields a katana?

I must reiterate - if they let battle lust override their concern for the common good. If they decided that nothing mattered except for getting good fights, consequences (positive or negative) be damned.

As for healers? Well, you brought up Kenpachi Zaraki a while ago, so you have some familiarity with Bleach. Did you just watch the anime, or did you read the manga to the end? It has the perfect example of why combat healers aren't necessarily purely benevolent. It details that Retsu Unohana, the captain of the medic division, was the first Kenpachi (Zaraki taking it up as a title later on), and her zanpaku-to heals people so she can keep fighting them.

Think about what a healer does - they stand back and watch as someone else gets cut, stabbed, shot, set on fire, electrocuted, etc. and they heal them so it can continue (maybe not forever, but there will be later battles to do this all over again). What does that say about them, really?

There is the potential for perverse desire, even in offering succor to those in need.

[Edax]

Think about what a healer does - they stand back and watch as someone else gets cut, stabbed, shot, set on fire, electrocuted, etc. and they heal them so it can continue (maybe not forever, but there will be later battles to do this all over again). What does that say about them, really?

(I just watched the anime)

Well if we're talking about combat medics, then they're heroes, no matter how many battles then charge in to. Even if it's a perverse desire, it's not like Zenos because that medic is endangering themselves to save lives. It remains a fundamental opposite to Zenos selfish desires. Just as a philanthropist might give money to the needy for the sake of self gratification, it still remains a selfless act.

You say Zenos serves "as a contrast to the Warrior of [Light / Darkness] and show what they could become if they let battle lust override their concern for the common good." But what character wouldn't this apply to? If Estinien gave into battle lust over the common good, would he also become Zenos? If Yugiri Mistwalker gave into battle lust over the common good, would she become Zenos? If Alphinaud gave into battle lust over the common good, would he become Zenos? If Taruru Taruru gave into battle lust over the common good, would she become Zenos? The problem here is that Zenos has no connection to the Warrior of Light so there's nothing to link him as being the shadow/reflection of the WoL.

[TankHunter678]

-snip-

One person's "selfless act" is another person's torture. A person being kept alive to be sliced apart only to be healed so they can be sliced apart some more is neither selfless or benevolent. Only when directed towards the common good does it become possible to be identified as such. When directed towards personal pleasures it ceases to be selfless and instead becomes malevolent. A healer charging into a battle to see how much blood they can see shed by the people they keep alive is saving no one, they are breaking people for their own amusement. Even they themselves are no exception from their twisted desire.

A philanthropist giving money to someone can be seen by some as a selfless act, but you have to take into account who is receiving that money and what they do with it. A philanthropist giving money to a somnus addict is actively helping destroy a life quite likely for their own amusement. Not so selfless anymore. Just look at how "selfless" Teleji Adeleji was.

For any character if the only thing that matters is a good fight then they will become like Zenos. Even worse if they have the power to prolong that good fight for as long as possible. Give Zenos the power of healing magic and he would keep us alive endlessly for the sake of fighting an endless good fight. He only feels alive when in that good fight. The common good ceases to be a concern in the face of personal pleasures. Then the problem becomes the source of that rush. This is why Zenos is a contrast/shadow to the WoL/D because the only thing that can challenge him and the only thing that can challenge us are entities on the level of gods and ancient masters of martial arts. If we only cared about a good fight like Zenos we would be seeking those things that give us the rush and the feeling of being alive. Some could try to construe us fighting primals as "selfless" until it becomes a case of us actively pushing Beast Tribes to summon more primals so we can have our good fight and satiate our desire to feel alive.

[Edax]

One person's "selfless act" is another person's torture. A person being kept alive to be sliced apart only to be healed so they can be sliced apart some more is neither selfless or benevolent. Only when directed towards the common good does it become possible to be identified as such. When directed towards personal pleasures it ceases to be selfless and instead becomes malevolent. A healer charging into a battle to see how much blood they can see shed by the people they keep alive is saving no one, they are breaking people for their own amusement. Even they themselves are no exception from their twisted desire.

That's not battle lust, that's Piquerism or Hematolagnia, which is a different from Zeno's twisted desires.

A philanthropist giving money to someone can be seen by some as a selfless act, but you have to take into account who is receiving that money and what they do with it. A philanthropist giving money to a somnus addict is actively helping destroy a life quite likely for their own amusement. Not so selfless anymore. Just look at how "selfless" Teleji Adeleji was.

A philanthropist giving money to a somnus addict is still a selfless act, which isn't actively helping to destroy a life. Drug addicts need money to live, especially just to prevent lethal withdrawal symptoms. And I would not call Teleji Adeleji, whom incited riots and attempted assassinations, a philanthropist.

Some could try to construe us fighting primals as "selfless" until it becomes a case of us actively pushing Beast Tribes to summon more primals so we can have our good fight and satiate our desire to feel alive.

But this isn't even a remote possibility in the story. This is something the WoL would NEVER do. So showing the consequences of something that isn't even the option for the protagonist is pointless. Is Oriel also a dark shadow of the Warrior of Light? She's a somnus addict and if the Warrior of Light became a somnus addict, then perhaps the WoL would engage in child slavery too. But where's the connection? Zenos has no relation to the WoL, they don't walk similar paths, there are no points where their characters parallel each other. So Oriel becomes just as valid "shadow" of the WoL as Zenos is.

[TankHunter678]

That's not battle lust, that's Piquerism or Hematolagnia, which is a different from Zeno's twisted desires.

Not all that different. Zeno's entire thing for seeking challenge is all self serving for his own pleasure. What I talked about is for the exact same reasons. Self serving for the sake of personal pleasure, one that could only be experienced in the clamour of battle where no one can complain about a healer healing people who are suffering. Even if the heals may... "miss" the intended target and prolong the fight.

A philanthropist giving money to a somnus addict is still a selfless act, which isn't actively helping to destroy a life. Drug addicts need money to live, especially just to prevent lethal withdrawal symptoms. And I would not call Teleji Adeleji, whom incited riots and attempted assassinations, a philanthropist.

A philanthropist he was however. He handed out money to the needy, a selfless act by your own definition, so that they could rebel against the people they hated who slighted them, who held them back, who refused to help them, who refused to help their homeland... and he wanted gone for different reasons. He was all about helping those less fortunate.

Same thing with a somnus addict. You give them money they get more somnus, it takes intervention to save them from their addiction, which would be a selfless act. Feeding their addiction to watch them self destruct is not.

But this isn't even a remote possibility in the story. This is something the WoL would NEVER do. So showing the consequences of something that isn't even the option for the protagonist is pointless. Is Oriel also a dark shadow of the Warrior of Light? She's a somnus addict and if the Warrior of Light became a somnus addict, then perhaps the WoL would engage in child slavery too. But where's the connection? Zenos has no relation to the WoL, they don't walk similar paths, there are no points where their characters parallel each other. So Oriel becomes just as valid "shadow" of the WoL as Zenos is.

Oh but it is a possibility. You see we are talking about giving into battle lust, giving into the rush of personal pleasures, to the point where the common good ceases to be a concern. Which is the state Zenos is in.

You see the WoL/D right now would not encourage the appearance of Primals to have something to do because that goes against the common good. A WoL/D who has fallen and no longer cares about the common good? Well just look at the DRK storyline: The WoL even contemplated letting Leviathan murder everyone in Limsa Lominsa because of asshats like that merchant who complained you got blood on his merchandise after you risked your life to get it back so that his life would not be ruined. Cannot blame it on Fran either, as the end of that storyline revealed that Fran was actually YOU, your own darkside that has to be suppressed every time you do a quest. The darkside that just wants to be free of all this WoL bullshit, all these thankless jobs where you put your life on the line for pittance, free to do whatever you want whatever you desire.

And if you were free and you felt like fighting primals for the rush, and you did not care about the common good because fuck the common good what has that ever gotten you? Well then you would go and encourage the appearance of primals to satisfy your personal desires.

Just like Zenos would go out of his way to actively encourage the growth of people who could become a challenge for him, just to satisfy his personal desires.

If the WoL became a somnus addict then yeah, once they exhausted their money and needed to get their somnus kick they very well could go and do what Oriel tried.

After all, at the core of our character is a lingering desire to be able to do what we want to do instead of always having to go do what others need, demand, us to do "for the common good". It waits on us to call upon it, to liberate us from the cycle of servitude to the whims of others.

If you haven't, go play the DRK storyline. Even if you do not intend to do anything else with the class.

[kidalutz]

Not all that different. Zeno's entire thing for seeking challenge is all self serving for his own pleasure. What I talked about is for the exact same reasons. Self serving for the sake of personal pleasure, one that could only be experienced in the clamour of battle where no one can complain about a healer healing people who are suffering. Even if the heals may... "miss" the intended target and prolong the fight.
.

Except look at how far you are reaching to try and make Zenos relatable as a shadow to the Protagonist? You have cherry picked what if so hard that the dead characters you used are even cringing. Use everything Zenos has shown in his screen time that has made him comparable as the Protagonists Shadow? Cause frankly after doing all of his appearances in my journal again I'm still coming up with Saturday Morning Cartoon Villains Right Hand Man.He's this guy.Didnt work out for this guy.

[Alleo]

Oh but it is a possibility. You see we are talking about giving into battle lust, giving into the rush of personal pleasures, to the point where the common good ceases to be a concern. Which is the state Zenos is in.

You see the WoL/D right now would not encourage the appearance of Primals to have something to do because that goes against the common good. A WoL/D who has fallen and no longer cares about the common good? Well just look at the DRK storyline: The WoL even contemplated letting Leviathan murder everyone in Limsa Lominsa because of asshats like that merchant who complained you got blood on his merchandise after you risked your life to get it back so that his life would not be ruined. Cannot blame it on Fran either, as the end of that storyline revealed that Fran was actually YOU, your own darkside that has to be suppressed every time you do a quest. The darkside that just wants to be free of all this WoL bullshit, all these thankless jobs where you put your life on the line for pittance, free to do whatever you want whatever you desire.

If you need some possibilities that are not happening in the game right now to make someone the mirror of a character then maybe that is a good way to show that we are not one right now.

The WoL could be many things, they could be drug addicts and only doing it to earn the Gil, they could be secretly planning world domination. But as long as these are not shown as character traits or behavior ingame then they are not canon. And the canon WoL is flawed but overall good character that often does the main stuff to save the world. And as Alisaie in the one short story shows, he also does help out other people with different stuff. He might grow more and more tired about some fetch quests but that is only just human.

Also Fray was the pure embodiment of our anger. Of course that will lead to over the top comments and reactions. In the end Fray was angry that people just threw us into the danger they themselves created without thinking about our lifes. The thing is: The WoL overcame Fray thus overcame the anger and continued to help.