After this is all over, can we never claim "WHM is fine"?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This is perhaps something that might come off as spiteful in a way, but I feel like it's worth bringing up.
I'm looking at all of the AST complaints. That it has lower rDPS contribution in comparison to WHM and SCH, that it's kit and heals feel weak.

WHM was in this exact same situation for both HW and SB, with possibly an even larger gap in DPS, lower heals and a clunky kit, and yet the majority opinion was that "WHM is fine, it's still viable".
Now, AST of course is due for a buff. And in general, raid utility always beats personal DPS, so once we're back to our usual AST/SCH unbreakable comp for the rest of ShB, can we never go back to "WHM is fine" arguments? WHM hasn't changed much. We have mobile heals and, currently, the highest DPS potential. Once raid utility scales higher and shoots past that, and our personal DPS starts to become lower than what an AST can bring in utility, and our heals already being weaker than SCH, we're going to be right back where we were for the past 4 years.

I am not in any way trying to undermine AST issues. I just hope that if history repeats itself, we instead can treat WHM how we're treating AST right now.

[fantasticm]

No.

Square Enix was playing the big brain 4D chess with these changes and they've played us all like a bunch of green fiddles. Having grown tired of WHM feedback for years and years, SE was counting on 5.0 sowing the seeds of discontent between the three by giving AST and SCH the dreaded 'White Mage Treatment,' albeit temporarily, no doubt. 1/3 of a group having issues is far more manageable than 2/3. By stinging the majority, SE has ensured not a single drop of WHM feedback will ever grace their doorstep again, So Help Them God. For the next time a White Mage dares open their mouth, an AST or SCH will be there to remind them of 'that time you out-damaged a Dark Knight during Titania Extreme while you made your poor, crippled Scholar friend do all of the healing so you could press Glare the whole time. Your era has come and gone, grandpa.'

We've all been had. This was their plan all along.

I look forward to Thin Air and Presence of Mind being made healer role actions by 6.0.






Please don't take this seriously.

[Saefinn]

My view of WHM, standing as a SCH has been that I hope they address these issues. At first, my thoughts were "maybe it's not gonna be as bad as this" or "maybe they'll fix it, something that can be patched" when WHM issues were first arising. And tried to look at it from a less pessimistic angle. But when the same problems repeat themselves, you have to stop and think maybe there is a bigger problem. My desire since is that WHM gets the treatment it needs.

But I have the advantage of having had a WHM cohealer since ARR and listening to her issues with each patch and hearing about the old carrot and stick. Her annoyance with the ShB change is that in order to bring WHM into line they didn't fix WHM, they just did what they've gradually done to WHM to SCH and AST in one go. She also said the only reason WHM's are probably complaining less is because they're used to it and that WHM hasn't changed all that much in ShB and the other healers are now in a bad position. Last I checked, WHM was probably last fine in A Realm Reborn?

So I can get your desire to want the rest of the healer community to not dismiss WHM complaints once things go back to the way they were and I hope they don't and that some can better empathise now having had their own job messed with. However, I feel it is at a point SE really needs to step in and seriously take a lot at what needs to be done with the game's healing and correct all 3 jobs to a point where people who main them are satisfied. My hope is that things don't go back to as they were. But you are probably right, AST will get the buffs they need (even if the other problems remain unaddressed), they'll have their utility and their heals will be more balanced after tweaks and WHM's strong DPS will start to look less attractive and SCH still has some utility and then WHM without any will be the least preferred.


Maybe all healers should unite and storm Area 51...wait...no, this is not where I was going with this...

[Mandeville]

I'd have an easier time sympathising if every thread wasn't getting hijacked by one of several bitter WHM mains that think the other healers deserve getting watered down and/or weaker, like it's their 'turn'.

I've never seen such vicious infighting among a group of what should be like minded players (healers in this case). I agree that WHM concerns shouldn't be dismissed, all healers went through big changes, it's a lot to process, and we should be supporting each others concerns instead of tearing each other down.

[HyoMinPark]

Perhaps I’m misremembering, but I seem to be remember it being near unanimous amongst all the healers that Stormblood WHM was not fine—and especially that WHM’s Lily System at the time was not fine. I do remember a very long thread about WHM feedback that had very few supporters when it came to 4.0 WHM’s design regardless of whatever healer they may have mained.

But, perhaps my memory is failing me.

[ForteNightshade]

I am not in any way trying to undermine AST issues. I just hope that if history repeats itself, we instead can treat WHM how we're treating AST right now.

I would like to direct you to the 143 page complaint thread regarding White Mage, Lilies and its overall design was flawed. The overwhelming consensus was White Mage needed utility. Did some people defend the old Lily system or maintain it's meant to be a pure healer for newer players? Of course. Just like you can parse through nearly every Astro thread currently and find some defenders in the sea of detractor.

Regardless, this whole "job x was good for long enough. Now it needs to suffer like job y has" needs to stop. You acknowledge White Mage had an extremely flawed philosophy. Why are we repeating the same bad habits because its Astro's turn to suffer? After four years of dealing with White Mage's issues, you should know precisely how much it sucks when your preferred job can't hang. At least White Mage pre-Shadowbringers could actually heal efficiently. Current Astro struggles mightily in dungeons, works twice as hard for weaker results and has by far the most complex (or rather, tedious) "rotation amongst healers. If you ever want to see a fourth healer implemented, we can't keep putting down the ones we have.

[Caduagm]

Everytime I see a post/thread from you, I always have the same rolling eyes reaction, because you never bring any good argument to the table;instead, they're all fallacies.

Anyway, let's move on:

WHM was in this exact same situation for both HW and SB, with possibly an even larger gap in DPS, lower heals and a clunky kit, and yet the majority opinion was that "WHM is fine, it's still viable".

You probably didn't even play Heavensward. Or, if you did, you played it badly.
WHM was the king (alongside SCH) for 2/3 about of that expansion. Astrologian was indeed not viable at least for Gorgias. The main AST buffs happened on the last tier, which, by the way, was the easiest on both healing check and dps check, leading to believe its usefulness.

lower heals and a clunky kit

You can say anything but that. That's a very false argument (I mean, all of your post is).
Another clue that you never played HW is that AST had the lowest healing kit. It was the only healer without a oGCD healing there. Also, the kits were kind of comparable:
WHM had 3 DOTs and Stone 3 with a few oGCDs to weave (same thing on SB, except we didn't have Aero I anymore). AST, on the other hand, had 3 DOTs and a lot more oGCDs to weave, which got even clunkier with the lost of Aero I and Combust I on Stormblood (before it got fixed).

We can all say that AST is viable. But, it's not worth it press a whole bunch of buttons for little reward, while WHM push a few and easily out-DPS tanks.

And a tip: see what you wrote before you post. It's getting embarrassing.

[PondHollow]

Though I only have WHM to 60, I think part of the problem is that so many healers play all three, and switch around flexibly by preference rather than complain. Healers should complain more, and this time we shouldn't stop.

There's no reason for WHM to do less damage than a tank - even if it hit like a Samurai people who don't want to heal wouldn't play it. Dancer is what Astro should be if we're not getting the time component back. Scholar is supposed to be a combat tactician.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

And a tip: see what you wrote before you post. It's getting embarrassing.

And then there's posts like this, where just because it's a post from me you'll completely disregard everything I say.
The pattern since HW has been WHM being decent for 1, maybe 2 patches, and horrible for the rest of the expansion. In HW AST was fixed in Midas, but overbuffed in Creator.
In SB it was never bad. People were under this impression that WHM HAD to be the prog healer, and bought it for the first tier, but realized over time that AST was just as good. It got worse with the Malefic buff allowing AST to outdps WHM before raid buffs. At that point there was no longer any questioning who to bring.

WHM has always had a really weak identity and kit. Nothing has changed in ShB, WHM looks great because the other healers are a bit undertuned atm.

[Elamys]

None of this has to be a contest or competition between healers and bitter griping isn't going to make things any better.